olofscience 420 #401 September 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: You are misguided. Be specific. Where? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #402 September 3, 2020 1 minute ago, olofscience said: How much are you willing to bet on that? It's not wrong to protect against that - you're making a strawman argument again because nobody said that. But murdering people exercising their 1st Amendment right is not "protecting against that". The sentiment is pretty clear. Anyone that is anti protest, anti looting, or anti riots, should stay away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olofscience 420 #403 September 3, 2020 1 minute ago, turtlespeed said: The sentiment is pretty clear. Anyone that is anti protest, anti looting, or anti riots, should stay away. Again, you're making it up. You're imagining things. Seriously, stop. Biden has repeatedly condemned the looting and rioting, if that helps: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/31/politics/joe-biden-pittsburgh-violence-speech/index.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #404 September 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, olofscience said: Be specific. Where? Because you are stating as fact that the demands from Seattle, "don't represent the majority view of the BLM movement at all." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #405 September 3, 2020 1 minute ago, olofscience said: Again, you're making it up. You're imagining things. Seriously, stop. Biden has repeatedly condemned the looting and rioting, if that helps: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/31/politics/joe-biden-pittsburgh-violence-speech/index.html I'm not referencing Biden. Specifically the crowd here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olofscience 420 #406 September 3, 2020 1 minute ago, turtlespeed said: Because you are stating as fact that the demands from Seattle, "don't represent the majority view of the BLM movement at all." I'm pretty sure. Many of the posters here are supportive of BLM, including myself, and NONE of them have ever mentioned segregation. You were the first one to mention it and you are now pointing to it like your argument depends on it. 2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: I'm not referencing Biden. Specifically the crowd here. Well, then we can take a survey of the crowd here. Who here thinks that being anti rioting and anti looting is wrong? ...<crickets>... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,904 #407 September 3, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, olofscience said: Well, then we can take a survey of the crowd here. Who here thinks that being anti rioting and anti looting is wrong? I think answering trolls is wrong. Several people have already pointed out how ridiculous his position is. Over and over. Can't you learn? Edited September 3, 2020 by gowlerk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #408 September 3, 2020 33 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: We demand the hospitals and care facilities of Seattle employ black doctors and nurses specifically to help care for black patients. This would be because studies have shown repeatedly that black people have their health concerns diminished and dismissed at a much, much higher rate than white people when seeking medical care. Having black staff on hand is one way to try and address this and ensure people are getting adequate/appropriate care. To spin this as a demand for segregation is to seek the worst possible interpretation without investigating the rationale at all. Be better. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olofscience 420 #409 September 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, gowlerk said: I think answering trolls is wrong. Several people have already pointed out how ridiculous his position is. Over and over. Can't you learn? Yep, guilty as charged. The troll is now fat and well-fed, and I shall move on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #410 September 4, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, olofscience said: I'm pretty sure. Many of the posters here are supportive of BLM, including myself, and NONE of them have ever mentioned segregation. You were the first one to mention it and you are now pointing to it like your argument depends on it. Well, then we can take a survey of the crowd here. Who here thinks that being anti rioting and anti looting is wrong? ...<crickets>... <facepalm> Edited September 4, 2020 by turtlespeed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #411 September 4, 2020 38 minutes ago, mistercwood said: This would be because studies have shown repeatedly that black people have their health concerns diminished and dismissed at a much, much higher rate than white people when seeking medical care. Having black staff on hand is one way to try and address this and ensure people are getting adequate/appropriate care. To spin this as a demand for segregation is to seek the worst possible interpretation without investigating the rationale at all. Be better. I have never heard that. That doesn't mean much, there are a lot of things out there I'm ignorant of. If it is true, what is the cause? That would make for a lot of racist doctors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #412 September 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: I have never heard that. That doesn't mean much, there are a lot of things out there I'm ignorant of. If it is true, what is the cause? That would make for a lot of racist doctors. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/racism-discrimination-health-care-providers-patients-2017011611015 https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-state-of-healthcare-in-the-united-states/racial-disparities-in-health-care/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK220347/ Multiple factors relating to cause, but a core one would be implicit bias (as opposed to overt racism). This is what I meant by "Be better". You saw a call for more black medical staff to be available to treat black people and didn't even look into why that would be a priority - you just assumed it meant segregation and charged on with that assumption. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #413 September 4, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, mistercwood said: you just assumed it meant segregation and charged on with that assumption. Yep, I did. Edited September 4, 2020 by turtlespeed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #414 September 4, 2020 2 hours ago, jakee said: 3 hours ago, Coreece said: People here including you say that you condemn the violence, rioting, looting, arson. . .BUT you know, reasons. . . because trump, because racism, because nobody's listening, because this is just a way to express a reasonable "demand that police stop killing minorities, or that it's just like the tea party, etc, etc, blah blah blah. . . Everything after the BUT is an invention that exists only in the minds of you, Turtlespeed and Tucker Carlson. Oh stop flattering me, lol. 2 hours ago, jakee said: No-one else here has said anything of the sort - your entire accusation is unfair, not just your tone. Oh come on, I just said that there is no excuse for the rioting and Jerry just said that there was because we don't know what it's like to be black. . .John posted the pic likening it to the tea party. Both Wendy and Bill posted thoughtful replies as to the reasons why it's happening, and I get all that. I understand that's the reason - but at the same time it's like so what, everyone has reasons for their criminality. Anyone that gets it understands those are the reasons, and I think you lose an opportunity to find common ground when you belabor that point rather than just condemning it outright and moving on to the more positive aspects/reasons for peaceful protest when discussing these issues with people or business owners that don't get it. And that's mainly what I had in mind when I said it undermines legitimate efforts. 3 hours ago, jakee said: The accompanying riots don't seem to be deligitimizing anything, probably because most people aside from you and the T's can easily distinguish the legitimate protesters from the opportunist rioters. See, it's you who's in their own head making things up. Where did I ever lump together legitimate protesters and opportunist rioters? Take for example my post about rioting and olof's sarcastic reply as if it's all just about the demand that police stop killing minorities. Or Bill's reply about using the reasoning behind the riots as a means to understand the issues and end them, rather than just condemning the rioting and using the peaceful protests as a means to explain those issues. Those two replies lack distinguishing more than anything that I've ever said on the subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #415 September 4, 2020 3 hours ago, billvon said: Right. No one is saying there are excuses. Just reasons. By understanding them we can start to bring an end to it. By ignoring them, and saying "well they are just violent evil thugs who should be stopped, arrested and/or killed" then we just make it worse. I agree, but I think you lose an opportunity to find much needed common ground when you don't just condemn the rioting outright and use the reasoning behind peaceful protests to bring about that understanding, especially when discussing it with people who by default automatically think like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #416 September 4, 2020 4 hours ago, SkyDekker said: For a country built on the threat of violence keeping the peace, built on violence being a solution to problems, it sure gets upset when violence is used. The 2nd Amendment specifically calls for violence and the threat of violence to keep government in line. Keyword there is government. I suppose I always saw that as being a somewhat more organized threat with a specific goal in mind, rather than just random acts of violence against citizens and business owners that really have nothing to do with the problem. I see it similar to what the "Not Fucking Around" guys did at Stone Mountain - or perhaps even if they took it a bit further and took control of the park and gave a list of demands. Or maybe even something like the protesters in Michigan when they stormed the Capital. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,904 #417 September 4, 2020 18 minutes ago, Coreece said: John posted the pic likening it to the tea party. In what way is the destruction and theft of private property during the tea party different from the examples of destruction and theft carried out recently by a few of the protesters? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,904 #418 September 4, 2020 20 minutes ago, Coreece said: Anyone that gets it understands those are the reasons, and I think you lose an opportunity to find common ground when you belabor that point rather than just condemning it outright and moving on to the more positive aspects/reasons for peaceful protest when discussing these issues with people or business owners that don't get it. And that's mainly what I had in mind when I said it undermines legitimate efforts. Some people want to focus on what is wrong rather than on the central message of the protestors. You can not deny that people in the street doing peaceful protest rarely accomplishes change. People do not give up power over others voluntarily. It took federal troops to accomplish a temporary desegregation of the school system in most of the United States. These are the facts of life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,904 #419 September 4, 2020 19 minutes ago, Coreece said: Keyword there is government. The police represent the government. But you know that. They are public servants. But you know that. They have been used to suppress poor people. But you know that. The protests are about people objecting to the government killing them. But you know that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #420 September 4, 2020 18 minutes ago, Coreece said: I agree, but I think you lose an opportunity to find much needed common ground when you don't just condemn the rioting outright and use the reasoning behind peaceful protests to bring about that understanding, especially when discussing it with people who by default automatically think like that. How can we support protests while condemning riots? Is there a well-defined line besides the already-stated “looting and burning are unacceptable?” Or do the protests have to stop until the “leaders” can control every.last.protester? Because if so, then the right (that completely monolithic entity with no internal differences) owns every single racist, and they define it, just as so many on the right insist that the looters define the left. Each of us has a responsibility; not to wait for the other side to be our definition of perfect, but to help to define what we want for our country. Wendy P. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #421 September 4, 2020 6 hours ago, turtlespeed said: Are you a fan of leading questions? Because . . . I noticed you didn't answer mine either. I'll be happy to answer yours if you answer mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #422 September 4, 2020 3 hours ago, Coreece said: I agree, but I think you lose an opportunity to find much needed common ground when you don't just condemn the rioting outright and use the reasoning behind peaceful protests to bring about that understanding, especially when discussing it with people who by default automatically think like that. Because peaceful protests usually don't work. All the peaceful, lawful protests in the world didn't stop segregated buses in the south, for example. It took a criminal (Rosa Parks) to bring about that change. Same with riots. The US would not have gotten an 8 hour workday without the Haymarket Riot. The Birmingham Riot of 1963 led to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The Stonewall Riots led to the first LGBT rights groups, and that in turn led to the first legal protections for gay people. The Cincinnati Riots of 2001, started by the police killing of an unarmed black teenager, led to massive police reforms there. Would any of that happened without those riots? Not in the same time frame, and potentially never. There are a lot of people who are so comfortable with the status quo that they won't change, ever, unless they are forced to. Unless police are forced to change by a Chamber of Commerce that doesn't want to see any more businesses damaged. Unless the government is forced to address inequalities lest riots erode a politician's popularity. Does that suck? You bet it does. But it happens. Rioting sucks, and there's no excuse for violence in protests. But for people who have no other voice, it is their only way to be heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #423 September 4, 2020 7 hours ago, turtlespeed said: By election time, it is likely that the rioting and looting will have mostly stopped. How many people's lives and livelihoods will have been destroyed because of these people? Why is it wrong to protect against that? Because innocent people will inevitably end up dead. Why don't you care about their lives? 7 hours ago, turtlespeed said: You saw this coming and decided to protect your business. Which path do you choose? You chose the path of shooting innocent people. Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #424 September 4, 2020 6 hours ago, turtlespeed said: You are misguided. I actually agree with a lot of the demands that came out of the list. Then why did you say they didn't exist? Why lie? Quote The segregative parts, not so much. What made those the most significant ones? What made those few lines from a few people in Seattle the main demands of the entire national protest movement, overriding all others? What made them the most significant demands of the Kenosha protests, which are a response to events that occerued long after the CHAZ ceased to exist? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olofscience 420 #425 September 4, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Coreece said: Those two replies lack distinguishing more than anything that I've ever said on the subject. I think looting and rioting is wrong and very counter-productive to the peaceful protests demanding justice. I *really* didn't think I had to say that as I've never said anything to support the rioting and destruction. My comments were aimed at keeping the topic on the main reasons for the protests in the first place and not the destruction done by a minority. It's quite a contrast - you take my lack of comments on it as support for rioting, while Turtle actually praises the killer and all it implies is he's "anti-looting and anti-rioting". As I've said, Biden has condemned the rioting repeatedly, and unlike Trump he doesn't feed the flames. Trump stokes it and points to the riots as "what's already happening (on my watch) will happen if Biden wins". Edited September 4, 2020 by olofscience Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites