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bch7773

Unstowed brakes do what to the opening?

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I don't use a packer - but used to. The very best always told you if they thought something did not look right or was undone. If they can't take that minimal level of responsibility in their role, they should get out of the packing business -



informing you that you may have a problem, sure... dropping everything else and fixing it for you?? hardy.. it isnt their 'responsibility' at all, it's YOURS...

one of the downsides of the increasing popularity of skydiving seems to be the more prevalent personality type and attitude that believes someone else should be doing everything they can to 'save you from yourself' ...:S

take some personal responsibility. Chose, inspect and maintain your own gear.. its your life that hangs on it.... if you decide to pay someone to pack your chute for you, dont expect them to 'wipe your ass' when you neglect the important details... its not the packers ass in the air...

take care of your packers and they will take care of you, but don’t expect it as ‘part of the service’ as many jumpers seem to when they toss a tangled mess on the mat and walk off…
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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I don't use a packer - but used to. The very best always told you if they thought something did not look right or was undone. If they can't take that minimal level of responsibility in their role, they should get out of the packing business -



informing you that you may have a problem, sure... dropping everything else and fixing it for you?? hardy.. it isnt their 'responsibility' at all, it's YOURS...

one of the downsides of the increasing popularity of skydiving seems to be the more prevalent personality type and attitude that believes someone else should be doing everything they can to 'save you from yourself' ...:S

take some personal responsibility. Chose, inspect and maintain your own gear.. its your life that hangs on it.... if you decide to pay someone to pack your chute for you, dont expect them to 'wipe your ass' when you neglect the important details... its not the packers ass in the air...

take care of your packers and they will take care of you, but don’t expect it as ‘part of the service’ as many jumpers seem to when they toss a tangled mess on the mat and walk off…



yeah, what he said!
my pics & stuff!

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This shit is dangerous enough without some ASSHOLE deciding to endanger someone elses life because he feels like teaching someone a lesson.



I agree with that.

It is a simple business arrangement. Everyone can discuss the terms. The packer could simply say, "We prefer that you stow your brakes." That isn't too demanding. Just someone being a dick.

They are placed in a position of trust. It seems that they have violated that trust when it was easy to just say something. I am glad that I don't know any packers who are that childish, unprofessional, and dangerous.

Taking the chance of packing someone a mal is probably the stupidest thing I have heard of.

They should be fired.

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I knew I'd get shit for that one. I NEVER said it was ok to do that, and I don't condone it. BUT, being on that end where you are busting your ass to do as many as possible, you ARE being paid to pack. Yes, you could say it's part of the job, but that is something the jumper should be taking care of. That's just my view of it.


As a rigger doing a reserve....totally different story.



As a rigger you are held to the same standard when you pack a main as when you pack a reserve. And packing includes setting the brakes, un-stowing the slider and any other tasks required to pack the parachute as recommended by the manufacture.

§ 65.129 Performance standards.

No certificated parachute rigger may—

(e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute;


If non-riggers are doing the packing they are to be under "direct supervision" of a rigger. And that rigger is saying that the rig is packed according to procedures as in (e) above.

§ 105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems.

(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger.


Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I don't use a packer - but used to. The very best always told you if they thought something did not look right or was undone. If they can't take that minimal level of responsibility in their role, they should get out of the packing business -



informing you that you may have a problem, sure... dropping everything else and fixing it for you?? hardy.. it isnt their 'responsibility' at all, it's YOURS...

one of the downsides of the increasing popularity of skydiving seems to be the more prevalent personality type and attitude that believes someone else should be doing everything they can to 'save you from yourself' ...:S

take some personal responsibility. Chose, inspect and maintain your own gear.. its your life that hangs on it.... if you decide to pay someone to pack your chute for you, dont expect them to 'wipe your ass' when you neglect the important details... its not the packers ass in the air...

take care of your packers and they will take care of you, but don’t expect it as ‘part of the service’ as many jumpers seem to when they toss a tangled mess on the mat and walk off…



Preaching to the choir. As I said, I pack my own -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

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I knew I'd get shit for that one. I NEVER said it was ok to do that, and I don't condone it. BUT, being on that end where you are busting your ass to do as many as possible, you ARE being paid to pack. Yes, you could say it's part of the job, but that is something the jumper should be taking care of. That's just my view of it.


As a rigger doing a reserve....totally different story.



As a rigger you are held to the same standard when you pack a main as when you pack a reserve. And packing includes setting the brakes, un-stowing the slider and any other tasks required to pack the parachute as recommended by the manufacture.

§ 65.129 Performance standards.

No certificated parachute rigger may—

(e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute;


If non-riggers are doing the packing they are to be under "direct supervision" of a rigger. And that rigger is saying that the rig is packed according to procedures as in (e) above.

§ 105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems.

(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger.


Sparky



What Sparky said -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

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At lower wing loadings on a square, it can be fun to jump (solo) and then dump with no brakes stowed . The canopy does a heck of a surge. One doesn't want to be in the air with other people as your canopy will open in full drive = less time to avoiid other people.



What a soft cock packer, not stowing your brakes. To really teach you a lesson they should have stowed just one brake. Similarly giving a hard pull on the hackey would have been another option. SOFT
;)

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One of my buddies has just started jumping his Comp Cobalt 95 with the brakes not stowed to soften the openings - so far so good.

Icarus tandem canopies don't even have brake settings. They open soft.

I've heard that JC use to jump his VXs without stowing to soften things up, but that's just hearsay.

Bottom line - not stowing your brakes results in slower/softer openings. I imagine it can also result in some seriously violent/shitty malfunctions...

Canuck

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We have some crw/demo rigs with hybrid triathlons in them. I jumped a 150 and a 160 both once before they had their half brake thingies installed, the openings were slooooooow. Like over 1k (hop'n'snivel). It then took 3k for me to get the slider to come down on the 150 :S

On the team crw rigs (competition triathlons 99 and 120) the half brakes are never set, no idea why though.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Everyone in this sport should be looking out for one another***That's sort of old-style thinking



I am still very new but I am hoping this attitude is only prevalent at the really large DZs as one of the things I am enjoying so far is the comradarie at my DZ

Hopefully there is a way to halt the progression toward this kind of attitude.

Only skydivers know why the birds sing!

Jim

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>Everyone in this sport should be looking out for one another.

That's sort of old-style thinking. I've seen many new jumpers become angry when older jumpers give them advice on canopy selection, what they're doing in RW etc. More than once, I've seen a packer put aside a rig that has a badly worn closing loop (or some other problem) only to get yelled at by the jumper who then can't make their 10 minute call. "Are you gonna pay my slot that I'm gonna miss now?" I remember one angry customer ask a packer. Enough instances like that, and I could see the packer giving the customer what they want - a fast pack job, period.

It would be nice if people _did_ look out for each other. That goes both ways. It means helping people who need help, and it also means accepting help/advice when it's offered - and not reaming someone out for trying to help. Even if the jumper in question has 200 jumps and knows everything.



Bill,

I missed this response and just caught it and had a comment.

If indeed looking out for one another is old-style, we should get back to that particular element of old-style. While my parents shared with me how neighbors used to be more friendly with each other and help each other out many years ago, today you're lucky if you know your neighbors well at all. But your neighbors are generally not involved in packing your life-saving equipment. I think the skydiving community should be very different since it is such a small group and there is a lot of interdependence.

This is most paramount because many newbies use packers - and a packer's ability to see something not right is far advanced of any newbie generally speaking because they work with so many rigs.

Unlike Zenister suggested, it's not that I think people should be making packers responsible for everything - it's just that the knowledge is there to share, and they can educate someone who is not properly stowing their brakes.

But, you are right, the recipient has to be willing to accept that education. But the instances of defiant or even arrogant responses from young jumpers should not dissuade the more experienced folks, including packers, from fostering advice and education. If the advice stops, those individuals that would be receptive will never hear it. The consequences are too dire for discouragement to reign in this area.

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

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>But the instances of defiant or even arrogant responses from
>young jumpers should not dissuade the more experienced folks, including
>packers, from fostering advice and education. If the advice stops, those
>individuals that would be receptive will never hear it.

Honestly I do less of it now. Unless I know the person involved pretty well, I generally won't talk to him/her about a canopy control problem - I've just gotten in too many fruitless arguments with people who are "defending" themselves against my "slam" on them. "What are you, my mother?" gets old. OTOH I'm happy to answer people's questions about such things.

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I know this is an old thread but I just experienced this so did a forum search and found this thread.

All I can say is, that was a really rough, hard, painful opening. One of the brakes wasn't stowed because the elastic loop to hold the toggle in place was torn. (did it tear on opening? or was it so frayed/worn that it wasn't stowed properly in the first place?) My body position was stable during pull so I don't think it was improper position.

It caused a really hard pull on my harness, to the point where I now have really bad bruising on my inner thighs and they are chafed and red. The slider also was hung up for awhile and I had a bit of a spin before I could release the other brake and get things sorted out.

If this was negligence on the packer's part I'm really annoyed. The elastic looked really worn and frayed so how did they not see? I'm not blaming because maybe it happened on opening (how? but maybe...) But yeah. It really hurt. Made for a painful canopy ride down, too as my thighs were burning.

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realpet

I've seen one case where the loop was almost totally torn due to incorrect packing, the toggle nose was stowed to brake line above the metal ring on the riser.



Exactly......... If the brake is correctly set there is no force applied to the toggle keeper at all, it all goes to the guide ring. If the toggle keeper is worn out it hardly matters (as long as the toggle stays in place and the brake is not released, of course)

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Canuck



Icarus tandem canopies don't even have brake settings. They open soft....

Canuck



they may not have a catseye but that does not mean the brakes are not set for opening. the tail is pulled down in full flight on icarus tandems. it is a compromise that works out well.

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And in the old days, there were no such things as toggle keepers, and things were OK.

So they aren't necessary. But they became normal for a number of reasons. Certainly very important once people started setting risers up to move the slider down past the links (to keep the slider from catching the toggle). Also useful to keep the toggle in place once velcro was abandoned for sometimes poorly-designed tuck tab designs. And useful in general to just be one extra thing keeping the toggle securely in position.

In the same vein as what others said, a suddenly torn elastic suggests the toggle wasn't set properly in the first place -- brake eye above ring not below.

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I've seen one case where the loop was almost totally torn due to incorrect packing, the toggle nose was stowed to brake line above the metal ring on the riser.



Any DZ rigger can tell you that this error happens ALL THE TIME, to people/packers of all experience levels. To err is human, after all...

Edit: Packers ARE people, of course, haha!

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thetreehugger



All I can say is, that was a really rough, hard, painful opening. One of the brakes wasn't stowed because the elastic loop to hold the toggle in place was torn. (did it tear on opening? or was it so frayed/worn that it wasn't stowed properly in the first place?) My body position was stable during pull so I don't think it was improper position.



You show 20 jumps.

Do you know how to pack yet?

As was noted, the elastic doesn't do anything but hold the tab of the toggle in place. It doesn't "lock" the brakes in place.

That is done by putting the nose of the toggle through the cat's eye on the steering line, below the steel ring.

As was noted, it's a "not unusual" mistake to put the nose of the toggle through the cat's eye above the steel ring, then put the nose of the toggle into the keeper.

That will virtually guarantee a 'brake fire' and torn keeper.

If you don't understand what I've written, ask someone to show you how to properly stow the brakes. Best test for properly stowed brakes that I know of is to take the steering line going up towards the canopy and give it a healthy tug.

As is often the case, this is much easier to explain and understand with the thing in front of you.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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thetreehugger

I know this is an old thread but I just experienced this so did a forum search and found this thread.

All I can say is, that was a really rough, hard, painful opening. One of the brakes wasn't stowed because the elastic loop to hold the toggle in place was torn. (did it tear on opening? or was it so frayed/worn that it wasn't stowed properly in the first place?) My body position was stable during pull so I don't think it was improper position.

It caused a really hard pull on my harness, to the point where I now have really bad bruising on my inner thighs and they are chafed and red. The slider also was hung up for awhile and I had a bit of a spin before I could release the other brake and get things sorted out.

If this was negligence on the packer's part I'm really annoyed. The elastic looked really worn and frayed so how did they not see? I'm not blaming because maybe it happened on opening (how? but maybe...) But yeah. It really hurt. Made for a painful canopy ride down, too as my thighs were burning.



Sounds like a slammer that broke the elastic.
Shit happens, move on. Don't blame the packer unless you know it was their fault, which you don't

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The worst thing I heard from a packer is: "I pack my parachute way slower and neater than the ones I pack for jumpers".

Point being, find a packer you can work with and talk to them, observe them how they pack. Don't be that asshole who expects things, then gets all worked up because the packjob did not happen the way he imagined it in his head. They are still people and not some fabric slaves.

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