How to end this

[SkyDekker 1,294]

1 minute ago, airdvr said:

So we should apply the rule of law to me but ignore those who are breaking it?  You don't see the problem there?

You are also ignoring the president having non-violent protesters excising their 1st amendment rights shot at, so he can go have his picture taken. 

[Rick 67]

19 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

One of them is that you can't use it to protect property.

that depends on where you are.Some states allow deadly force to prevent forcible felonies which includes burglary

 

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, yoink said:

All media use attention grabbing headlines. That's how they get you to read the story.

 

If your brain reads this one and immediately goes to 'they wrote this headline to deliberately incite anarchy' that says more about your state of mind than it does the Post. Maybe chill out on the conspiracy theories a bit - you're on the road to becoming Ron.

. . . by your logic - if you didn't read it that way you are on your way to becoming Bernie

I hope you know there is a large middle ground there, Mr. absolutist.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Don't be so bloody stupid.

 

What exactly is it about the phrase 'must go' that strongly implies a legal process and what is it about the headline 'must be removed' that (especially in an election year) strongly implies an illegal one?

Removed has the inference of "By Force".

[SkyDekker 1,294]

4 minutes ago, Rick said:

that depends on where you are.Some states allow deadly force to prevent forcible felonies which includes burglary

 

True. But burglary and looting are different crimes. Looting is often charged as a misdemeanor. Can you murder someone for a misdemeanor?

Edited June 2, 2020 by SkyDekker

[normiss 726]

4 minutes ago, Rick said:

that depends on where you are.Some states allow deadly force to prevent forcible felonies which includes burglary

 

I believe Texas is the only state allowing deadly force to protect property.

[kallend 1,827]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

Removed has the inference of "By Force".

If the Senate had done the job its members swore to do, and as a result removed Trump back in January/February instead of sabotaging the process, would that have been "by force"?

[normiss 726]

Just now, kallend said:

If the Senate had done the job its members swore to do, and as a result removed Trump back in January/February instead of sabotaging the process, would that have been "by force"?

Due process.

[airdvr 201]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

True. But burglary and looting are different crimes. Looting is often charged as a misdemeanor. Can you murder someone for a misdemeanor?

NO.  But I can feel as if my life were in danger.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

1.  The penalty for looting is not death.

2. There's a world of difference between protecting your own property and the police using lethal force to stop someone from committing an act that would only be penalized by fines and minor prison time.  When that escalates to an act that may kill people it's a different story.

 

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Mmm, I wonder why you post that image and not the image of George Floyd being murdered?

 

There are two types of people during this time.

1. "it is horrible that innocent black man was killed, but destroying property has to stop"
2. "it is horrible that property is being destroyed, but killing innocent black men has to stop"

 

 

I don't think that's accurate.

I am of the "It's abhorrent that anyone was killed because of an asshole cop." variety.

Then I'm of the "It is abhorrent that there is still a divide between races, and the peaceful protests are hopefully going to do some good." variety.

Then I'm of the, "If you try to hurt my family, or destroy my business, and what I have worked for, I will defend it to the very last." Variety. 

[Rick 67]

2 minutes ago, normiss said:

I believe Texas is the only state allowing deadly force to protect property.

According to Florida law, a person can use or threaten to use deadly force to prevent the imminent commission of "forcible felonies" such as assault, burglary, or kidnapping

SkyDekker not sure why you were compelled to add "Can you murder someone for a misdemeanor?" The law I quoted was pretty clear with Forcible felonies.

When does looting become burglary? I really don't know. 

[turtlespeed 212]

6 minutes ago, Rick said:

According to Florida law, a person can use or threaten to use deadly force to prevent the imminent commission of "forcible felonies" such as assault, burglary, or kidnapping

SkyDekker not sure why you were compelled to add "Can you murder someone for a misdemeanor?" The law I quoted was pretty clear with Forcible felonies.

When does looting become burglary? I really don't know. 

I can't find the article - but there was a tattoo shop in Dallas that boarded up their windows.  The boarding was being taken down, and glass being broken for entry, until they found out the owner and his employees had taken Biden's advice and armed themselves with shotguns. Evidently the looters got scared and called the cops, saying the the people inside the building they were breaking into were brandishing firearms.

I also heard it first hand from one of the artists.

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by turtlespeed

[Rick 67]

3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Evidently the looters got scared and called the cops

the cops should have arrested the looters

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,464]

30 minutes ago, airdvr said:

So we should apply the rule of law to me but ignore those who are breaking it?  You don't see the problem there?

 

11 minutes ago, airdvr said:

NO.  But I can feel as if my life were in danger.

The rule of law will be applied. Maybe or maybe not to those who are threatening your property, but if you shoot them, it will almost certainly be applied to you.
If you are legitimately in fear for your life (or great bodily harm), then use of deadly force may be legal. 

But if you think it will be simple, or cheap, think again. 

AggieDave once posted that a 'no bill' (Grand Jury declines to indict) self defense killing, the defendant averages $20k in legal expenses. That's in line with everything I was taught.

Keep in mind that I'm pretty strongly in favor of gun rights and self defense.
I'm just a realist about the consequences of using deadly force to defend one's self. 

Glib comments about shooting looters rarely take into account the intricacies and complexites of the laws.
Nor do they even begin to consider the aftermath & consequences.

16 minutes ago, Rick said:

that depends on where you are.Some states allow deadly force to prevent forcible felonies which includes burglary

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Rick said:

According to Florida law, a person can use or threaten to use deadly force to prevent the imminent commission of "forcible felonies" such as assault, burglary, or kidnapping

SkyDekker not sure why you were compelled to add "Can you murder someone for a misdemeanor?" The law I quoted was pretty clear with Forcible felonies.

When does looting become burglary? I really don't know. 

Laws vary from state to state. Florida has shown itself to be well off the norm for use of deadly force for civilian self defense. In any other state, George Zimmerman would almost certainly have been convicted of voluntary manslaughter. 

 

I didn't know what the difference between looting and burglary was. So I looked it up.

A quick search found this:

https://santaclaritafree.com/gazette/police-blotter/the-difference-between-burglary-and-looting

Both burglary & looting can be either a felony or misdemeanor. Depends on a bunch of things.

[turtlespeed 212]

11 minutes ago, Rick said:

the cops should have arrested the looters

 

Common sense doesn't really prevail in these days, though, does it?

They called it in after they left to loot something easier.

[Rick 67]

2 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Depends on a bunch of things.

I believe there is something about "looting during a state of emergency" also.  Either way like Joe says you open up a whole legal shitstorm shooting anyone justified or not. 

[normiss 726]

22 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

 

The rule of law will be applied. Maybe or maybe not to those who are threatening your property, but if you shoot them, it will almost certainly be applied to you.
If you are legitimately in fear for your life (or great bodily harm), then use of deadly force may be legal. 

But if you think it will be simple, or cheap, think again. 

AggieDave once posted that a 'no bill' (Grand Jury declines to indict) self defense killing, the defendant averages $20k in legal expenses. That's in line with everything I was taught.

Keep in mind that I'm pretty strongly in favor of gun rights and self defense.
I'm just a realist about the consequences of using deadly force to defend one's self. 

Glib comments about shooting looters rarely take into account the intricacies and complexites of the laws.
Nor do they even begin to consider the aftermath & consequences.

 

 

Laws vary from state to state. Florida has shown itself to be well off the norm for use of deadly force for civilian self defense. In any other state, George Zimmerman would almost certainly have been convicted of voluntary manslaughter. 

 

I didn't know what the difference between looting and burglary was. So I looked it up.

A quick search found this:

https://santaclaritafree.com/gazette/police-blotter/the-difference-between-burglary-and-looting

Both burglary & looting can be either a felony or misdemeanor. Depends on a bunch of things.

Criminal defense attorney friend of mine has told me defense of felony charges will easily start about $50k and go up.

[DJL 232]

20 minutes ago, Rick said:

I believe there is something about "looting during a state of emergency" also.  Either way like Joe says you open up a whole legal shitstorm shooting anyone justified or not. 

It's a real question as to whether a business could survive the publicity of having shot a bunch of people who tried to break into their store (EDIT) even during a riot.  A friend of mine stayed in his business armed overnight on Sunday and I would like to think he knew that popping a couple of rounds off should be enough to make them think twice.

The idea of calling the police because there are armed people inside the store you're trying to rob is amazing.

Edited June 2, 2020 by DJL

[SkyDekker 1,294]

The idea you need deadly force to protect property is pretty crazy to me. You need insurance to protect property.

[Rick 67]

20 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The idea you need deadly force to protect property is pretty crazy to me. You need insurance to protect property.

If the guy in the gun shop had not stopped the looters from stealing his guns there could have been more shooting deaths.

[SkyDekker 1,294]

Just now, Rick said:

If the guy in the gun shop had not stopped the looters from stealing his guns there could have been more shooting deaths.

If looters got into a gun shop it wasn't very well designed or built.

[airdvr 201]

19 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The idea you need deadly force to protect property is pretty crazy to me. You need insurance to protect property.

So in that vein I should just let people destroy what I've worked for?  Because I have insurance?  Would you wait until your AAD fires too?

What if I was financially over burdened by C19 and didn't have the funds to pay my premiums?  Still feel the same way?

[SkyDekker 1,294]

2 minutes ago, airdvr said:

What if I was financially over burdened by C19 and didn't have the funds to pay my premiums? 

Then you also cannot pay your defence after shooting them. Which means you will lose your business. Should you really be killing people if the outcome is the same regardless? At that point the killing has no reason at all.

 

 

[airdvr 201]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Then you also cannot pay your defence after shooting them. Which means you will lose your business. Should you really be killing people if the outcome is the same regardless? At that point the killing has no reason at all.

 

 

I don't have to pay my defense.  If I cannot afford a lawyer....

[Rick 67]

9 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

If looters got into a gun shop it wasn't very well designed or built.

they tried the first night and couldn't get in and had to come back with better tools the 2nd night

edited for spelling

Edited June 2, 2020 by Rick