Trump and free speech

[ScottishJohn 25]

38 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

Wonder how Turtle is going to justify Trump on this one?

 

I wouldn't know. I turned on "ignore his bat shit crazy trolling" months ago 

Edited May 29, 2020 by ScottishJohn

[BIGUN 1,053]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

Not really.

Yes. Really.

Quote

Trump wants to punish the social media companies for being mean to him (the Executive order specifically references beng a reaction to the fact check of his Tweet) which is dangerous behaviour for any head of state. Also, while Biden wants to simply get rid of 230, Trump wants to police it on a case by case basis, with his Justice Department tasked with determining whether individual flags, deletions or fact checks are a result of following across the board policy or political bias on the part of the media companies. 

Trump is limited on what he can do by EO in this matter. In the end, 230 would have to go back before congress. 

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Go on, tell me you think that's a good idea.

No one thinks limiting free speech is a good thing. If you lived in the U.S. I would encourage you to write the Democratic house and encourage them to repeal 230.   

[jakee 1,254]

6 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Yes. Really.

No. Really not really.

Quote

Trump is limited on what he can do by EO in this matter. 

That doesn't mean he had to draft an EO that put his government in the position of being the arbiter of politically acceptable speech.

 

It also doesn't mean he had to make the EO specifically reference his motivation as being pissed off at the treatment of one of his own tweets.

 

Quote

In the end, 230 would have to go back before congress.    

Why in the end? Why not in the beginning? 

Edited May 29, 2020 by jakee

[BIGUN 1,053]

10 minutes ago, jakee said:

hat doesn't mean he had to draft an EO that put his government in the position of being the arbiter of politically acceptable speech.

Let me tell you a bedtime story that begins on September 25, 1789 . . 

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Why in the end? Why not in the beginning? 

Because in the beginning it started with Congress; therefore, in the end . . .

Edited May 29, 2020 by BIGUN

[jakee 1,254]

40 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Let me tell you a bedtime story that begins on September 25, 1789 . . 

Yeah, exactly my point. When on that date did anyone write down that it was ok for the government to decide which speech is legally protected and which isn't on the basis of political correctness?

Again, that's the difference - a point which you are clearly determined to avoid addressing, which means you probably know it's right.

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Because in the beginning it started with Congress; therefore, in the end . . .

The President doesn't get to change it by EO, because that's not how the law works. 

[BIGUN 1,053]

21 minutes ago, jakee said:

Yeah, exactly my point. When on that date did anyone write down that it was ok for the government to decide which speech is legally protected and which isn't on the basis of political correctness?

No. Your point was putting the, "government in the position of being the arbiter of politically acceptable speech." That's when it happened and has continued to happen for all those years. The US Supreme court has heard how many cases on free speech. 

 

23 minutes ago, jakee said:

The President doesn't get to change it by EO, because that's not how the law works. 

Article 2, section 2 is a rule of law. He can use EO to affect certain tenets of law, but "in the end" it will have to go thru congress.

[RonD1120 58]

I have not read the whole thread, but President Trump's EO is a win for the digital warriors.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-signs-executive-order-on-social-media-companies

[DJL 232]

8 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

 

 

That picture is hilarious.  Internet forum spec ops, no badges or insignia for security purposes and I'm pretty sure those are energy drinks.

[DJL 232]

12 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

I have not read the whole thread, but President Trump's EO is a win for the digital warriors.

And by the way, while we're talking about Trump and dealing with speech and civil unrest he just offered to send the military to kill looters.  In any other world or discussion a Patriot like you would call for immediate mobilization as permitted by the 2nd Amendment because of the very mention of the President calling for the US MILITARY to kill civilians for anything short of terrorism or an intent to use lethal force against a US target.

[normiss 622]

The White House
@WhiteHouse
This Tweet violated the Twitter Rules about glorifying violence. However, Twitter has determined that it may be in the public’s interest for the Tweet to remain accessible. Learn more
“These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!”

[BIGUN 1,053]

5 minutes ago, DJL said:

And by the way, while we're talking about Trump and dealing with speech and civil unrest he just offered to send the military to kill looters.  In any other world or discussion a Patriot like you would call for immediate mobilization as permitted by the 2nd Amendment because of the very mention of the President calling for the US MILITARY to kill civilians for anything short of terrorism or an intent to use lethal force against a US target.

It wasn't just now. It was yesterday. Governor Walz asked the President for financial help to mobilize the National Guard of which the Governor is the CiC. Then Governor Walz signed Executive Order 20-64 authorizing the to support Minneapolis and surrounding communities."The Guard said a “key objective” was to make sure fire departments could respond to calls, and said in a follow-up tweet it was “here with the Minneapolis Fire Department” to assist. But no move was made to put out the 3rd Precinct fire. Assistant Fire Chief Bryan Tyner said fire crews could not safely respond to fires at the precinct station and some surrounding buildings." 

Now he did say, "Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts." And, I do have a serious issue with that. I sincerely hope the NG Commanders will act in compliance with their written mission. We do NOT need another Kent State incident. 

[DJL 232]

44 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Now he did say, "Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts." And, I do have a serious issue with that. I sincerely hope the NG Commanders will act in compliance with their written mission. We do NOT need another Kent State incident. 

That's what I'm referring to, what he said yesterday via his own Twitter account AND the official White House account.

[jakee 1,254]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

No. Your point was putting the, "government in the position of being the arbiter of politically acceptable speech." That's when it happened and has continued to happen for all those years. 

That's when the government was told not to do it. It's kinda the opposite.

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The US Supreme court has heard how many cases on free speech. 

And in which of those cases did they say it was OK for the Executive branch to decided on a case by case basis whether specific instances of speech should be legally protected based on their interpretation of the political viewpoint being expressed? 

 

Again, that's the very real difference between his position and Biden's. Again, you should be aware that it's very obvious that you are avoiding this point, most probably because you know it is right.

Quote

Article 2, section 2 is a rule of law. He can use EO to affect certain tenets of law, but "in the end" it will have to go thru congress.

Why in the end? Why do this first? Why not go through Congress in the beginning?

Edited May 29, 2020 by jakee

[SkyDekker 1,122]

6 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Trump is limited on what he can do by EO in this matter.

Funny enough Biden is limited by what he can have Congress do too.

[Phil1111 910]

5 hours ago, normiss said:

The White House
@WhiteHouse
This Tweet violated the Twitter Rules about glorifying violence. However, Twitter has determined that it may be in the public’s interest for the Tweet to remain accessible. Learn more
“These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!”

When white protestors armed with AR-15's invade state buildings and drive elected officials out of them. While protesting lawful C-19 social distancing. trump said they are "very good people".

When Blacks and white protestors, protest homicide by agents of the state. trump wants them shot.

Republican leaders made a collective statement.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Phil1111

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Did anyone else notice that while everyone is freaking out about Trump's idiotic tweets, the pushback from Twitter and all that crap, the death toll from Covid crossed the 100k mark?

Coincidence?

[headoverheels 291]

45 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Did anyone else notice that while everyone is freaking out about Trump's idiotic tweets, the pushback from Twitter and all that crap, the death toll from Covid crossed the 100k mark?

Coincidence?

It passed 100k 3 days ago (May 26th).

I expect 200k before the end of August.

[kallend 1,623]

5 minutes ago, headoverheels said:

It passed 100k 3 days ago (May 26th).

I expect 200k before the end of August.

Very hard to predict, given the overwhelming importance of human behavior when restrictions are relaxed.  Just look at the photos from the beaches, and from Lake of the Ozarks.  While recognizing human stupidity,  it is very hard to estimate the extent of it and plug that into an exponential growth scenario without getting wildly divergent answers.

[headoverheels 291]

5 minutes ago, kallend said:

Very hard to predict, given the overwhelming importance of human behavior when restrictions are relaxed.  Just look at the photos from the beaches, and from Lake of the Ozarks.  While recognizing human stupidity,  it is very hard to estimate the extent of it and plug that into an exponential growth scenario without getting wildly divergent answers.

I don't see any reason for the death rate to go down as restrictions are relaxed.  The US is running 1000 per day, which even it does not increase means 200k total by the end of August.

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Did anyone else notice that while everyone is freaking out about Trump's idiotic tweets, the pushback from Twitter and all that crap, the death toll from Covid crossed the 100k mark?

Coincidence?

And now he's completely pulling out of the WHO.

Turns out 'make America great again' is the task he is creating for his successor.

Edited May 29, 2020 by jakee

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

57 minutes ago, headoverheels said:

It passed 100k 3 days ago (May 26th).

I expect 200k before the end of August.

I would not be surprised. At all.

 

In fact, as the 'post-opening' wave builds up, it may only take until the beginning of August (~2 months from now).

As the Professor noted, the idiots & fools are ignoring the recommendations. Here in Wisconsin, the bars opened up the day the SC threw out the quarantine order. 

Now we're seeing bartenders testing positive.

 

Over Memorial Day weekend, huge crowds descended on Lake Geneva. Its a BIG tourist attraction, bringing in people frm Illinois (still locked down). No 'distancing', no masks, no nothing.

 

People said they were 'tired of being locked down'. And felt they shuld 'be able to decide for themselves what is and isn't safe'.

 

Unfortunately, the virus doesn't care if peole are 'tired'.  Nor does it allow 'deciding' on safety.

It just infects whenever & whomever it can.

 

We're just starting to see numbers going up. I think it will get very ugly in the next month.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by wolfriverjoe

[billvon 2,397]

12 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Wonder how Turtle is going to justify Trump on this one?

 

something something bias something something censorship is my guess.

[airdvr 197]

If you recall social distancing, mask use etc...was only to flatten the curve.  We knew there would be many deaths.  I know that doesn't fit your TDS story so now it's all about how many are dead.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

22 minutes ago, airdvr said:

If you recall social distancing, mask use etc...was only to flatten the curve.  We knew there would be many deaths.  I know that doesn't fit your TDS story so now it's all about how many are dead.

New Zealand, South Korea, Australia, Germany.

They took it seriously from the beginning. 
They are far closer to having it under control. 

Trump spent a month and a half pretending it 'would all go away'.

We are now paying the price for his stupidity.
We have 4% of the worlds population. We have something like 28% of the cases. 
The stupid people are going to make that price a lot higher. 

[gowlerk 1,911]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

Very hard to predict, given the overwhelming importance of human behavior when restrictions are relaxed.  Just look at the photos from the beaches, and from Lake of the Ozarks.  While recognizing human stupidity,  it is very hard to estimate the extent of it and plug that into an exponential growth scenario without getting wildly divergent answers.

It remains to be seen how well it spreads during the summer. Most of the large scale spreading events have involved people indoors in poorly ventilated rooms. I'm thinking that people outdoors will not get it nearly as much leading to even more of a false sense of security. Followed by an explosion  of infection growth in the fall. It does not appear to be going away anytime soon, but human discipline is waning. I'm still hoping to avoid it long enough for a vaccine, but I can only be so careful with also driving one week and helping to run a DZ the next.