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Crescentia

Triathlon or Spectre

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Posted (edited)

Hello,

I'm new in this sport and I want to have a canopy for beginners ;-) - it shall be my first own canopy - so it has to be user-friendly. I'm looking for a canopy I can concentrate on. Last year I landed a little bit hard on my botty in my first jumps and got a disc prolapse (with a Navigator). That's why I'm looking for a canopy with soft und smooth openings and soft, calm landings. I'm not interested and I know that I never will be interested to get lot of speed or do swoop. I'd like to do Freefly in the air, maybe in combination with a little bit Freestyle. And I like cross-country flying. The canopy shall bring me safely to the ground - "trouble-free" and with good stability

That's why I think the triathlon and the spectre (220 or 210) are the canopys for my interests (My wight: 74 Kg = 163 ilb). Like a lot of other beginner-women I have problems to see, when it is the right moment to flare (I learned 2-stage-flare: half and than full) - especially in no wind conditution. So I often flare to high or to low. I'm not interested in downsizing and get speed. I want a save canopy to fly for lots of years.

I love the slow demonstration-landings...

What do you think, which canopy is better for me? What are the advantages und disadvantages of both canopies?

Edited by Crescentia
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In another thread I read this:

"One thing that was noticeable about the specter, is the way it pitches front to back. It was noticeable on landing as you descended in to the stiller air near the ground. When you passed through a wind shear between two layers. Think end of the day as the ground cools off and the ground winds die but the wind is still blowing a couple hundred feet up. Well there is a wind sheer as you drop from one layer to the next. Some of your airspeed goes away. Interestingly the larger the canopy is for you the more noticeable this is. 5 knts is a larger percentage of your air speed and when that head wind dies you are 5 knts slower. The canopy wants to correct that. It wants to speed up. It feels like it takes off surging forward and down toward the ground. Flaring dosen't seem to help because the canopy is pitching forwards and can not make lift to support you till it pitches back above your head. The larger the canopy and the longer the lines the more dramatic this can be. You see it with student canopies. They induce it all the time. If you make a small turn with a break, the canopy pitches back and then when you let up on the toggle the canopy surges forward. Not a lot but enough to ruin your flare. Worse is the student that flares high and then decides to let up because miss judged it. When he tries to flare again the canopy is well in front of his body. These are more dramatic examples but the same thing happens when you come in to land. If the wind drops off you get a surge in the canopy. Some canopies do this more then others. Line length is one factor but I think the airfoil also plays a part in it. It really depends on the pitch stiffness of the canopy. I don't understand all of it. But it's noticeable in the specter. You might try a Triathlon. They are not as prone to this. Back when these canopies came out they were neck and neck and we had jumpers that went back and forth between the canopies. It was the same market. They loved the specter but had noticeable more trouble landing them under some conditions that they had no problem landing their Tri in.

I would not categorize a specter as a bad canopy you just need to learn to land it. Under those conditions I like to carry a little extra speed, front risers, or a small turn but hook a bit high. The idea being to to have a bit more speed when you enter that still air. You could also barrow a saber 2 from some one and give it a try. They also have a forgiving flare. Or go up a size. But with the specter I think it may just be a mater of learning to reconise the wind conditions. "

 

So I think the Tri is the savier one in landings?

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Unfortunately, accidents can and will happen, and with that in mind, I really don't think that any canopy will guarantee you a consistent soft landing as you can always either flare too low and hit the ground with somewhat higher speed, or flare high, have the canopy go through the cycle and dive into the ground. What you should definitely learn I guess is PLF (parachute landing fall) which will save you from injuries until you learn to flare and land properly.

Specifically about these canopies, I have only tried Spectre for a few jumps, though loaded a bit higher than what you're aiming for (170ft at ~98kg) and I must say, it was more difficult for me to land it than Safire 2 of the same size. It could be just that specific canopy (though lines were pretty new), or my technique, but it had to be flared more precisely, and wouldn't flatten out that easily on the landing.

There's lots of canopies which are considered conservative, like PD Silhouette and Aerodyne Pilot for example, but I think the top priority for you is to learn to PLF, keep jumping and learn proper landing technique. Of course, if you haven't, talk about this in detail with your instructors :)

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Binary93 said:

What you should definitely learn I guess is PLF (parachute landing fall) which will save you from injuries until you learn to flare and land properly.

Thank you for your advice. Yes - I learned it and I practiced it more than other beginners did. Because I have problems in landing, I had days on the dropzone I only made PLFs, when other jumped. Because, yes it is very important, espacially in the beginning.

And in the end I even feel saver to do PLF than to stand. I was proud, that they works well and some were almost perfect.

My landing on the botty was one of my first jumps, when I took the my legs high (how you do it as tandem).

But now I'd like to have my own canopy, so that I don't have to use different canopies from the DZ (which is in the moment "free"), and which all jumps a little bit different. I want to concentrate on only one and as save as possible for new skydivers - to get better in landing.

Edited by Crescentia

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Had a lower back fusion in 2001 so I need a soft opening canopy.  I love my Spectre.  

Is there a way that you can jump both a Spectre and a Triathlon to compare them?  That's the best way to figure out if either of them will work for YOU.  Anybody can tell you what they like and why but they aren't you.

Don't let anyone tell you that your landing issues are because you are female.  That's total bullshit.  Your landing issues are because no one has taught you how to time when to flare and how to flare correctly.  My best advice regarding improving your landings is to take a canopy control course ASAP.  

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10 hours ago, Crescentia said:

Hello,

I'm new in this sport and I want to have a canopy for beginners ;-) - it shall be my first own canopy - so it has to be user-friendly. I'm looking for a canopy I can concentrate on. Last year I landed a little bit hard on my botty in my first jumps and got a disc prolapse (with a Navigator). That's why I'm looking for a canopy with soft und smooth openings and soft, calm landings. I'm not interested and I know that I never will be interested to get lot of speed or do swoop. I'd like to do Freefly in the air, maybe in combination with a little bit Freestyle. And I like cross-country flying. The canopy shall bring me safely to the ground - "trouble-free" and with good stability

That's why I think the triathlon and the spectre (220 or 210) are the canopys for my interests (My wight: 74 Kg = 163 ilb). Like a lot of other beginner-women I have problems to see, when it is the right moment to flare (I learned 2-stage-flare: half and than full) - especially in no wind conditution. So I often flare to high or to low. I'm not interested in downsizing and get speed. I want a save canopy to fly for lots of years.

I love the slow demonstration-landings...

What do you think, which canopy is better for me? What are the advantages und disadvantages of both canopies?

I have a Specter 135, works fine on openings and landing.  Suggest you go big like your planning too. 

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6 hours ago, skybytch said:

Don't let anyone tell you that your landing issues are because you are female.  That's total bullshit.  Your landing issues are because no one has taught you how to time when to flare and how to flare correctly.  My best advice regarding improving your landings is to take a canopy control course ASAP.  

 This.

14 hours ago, Crescentia said:

Like a lot of other beginner-women I have problems to see, when it is the right moment to flare (I learned 2-stage-flare: half and than full) - especially in no wind conditution.

We ALL have had that problem. Boys are just better at acting like it didn't hurt  ;-)

 

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By the way, these ladies do a great job explaining what I've seen happening too many times. I must admit I didn't always recognise it before I watched their talk.

 

 

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(edited)

This is a great video and ...yes I remember, that someone on the dropezone told me "it's ok, you are a woman"...and I asked "really - is it so?" and he said "look"...in this time we had a woman with a broken leg on the DZ. And for a second I thought to myself: hopefully it isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy... and I think - from my today's View, it became one.

But I know, that I will start with a big canopy, to feel save and get self confident with it, because I like to fly the canopy. When I first was on my canopy and did my first moves - it was great and I said, wow flying make so much fun and is so relxing...And I want to fly it!

...but meanwhile the landing scares me. And I think one thing reinforced this: we had an accident on the DZ, where a guy downsized too fast and on the landing he hit the ground and if he wouldn't have rolled his body to a ball, he would have died. This was very hard to watch!

To fly save I think to start with 220/210 would be fine for me. I want to become better!

 

Edited by Crescentia

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How many jumps do you have?
What type / size are you jumping at the moment?

It sounds like you're very new and I would suggest renting if you can instead of buying at this time. As an example, my home DZ offers these rental sizes to allow us to downsize safely when we're ready to do so.
Navigators: 280, 260, 240, 220, 200 
Sabre 2: 210, 190, 170  

Navigators are student canopies and are very forgiving for landing. I injured my ankle on the 4th jump, walked with a cane for a week and when I came back 1 month later, I was scarred of the ground.

I'm the same weight as you but it took me 24 jumps on a N240 to be able to time the flare properly. As soon as I was nailing the landing on every jump with different wind conditions, I felt confident  that I could handle a smaller canopy. For me, there was little differences between the N220, N200 and S2 210 and I quickly ended up on the S2 190. 

I remember that I hated to rent gear, I had bruises from every jump but it made more sense financially to rent until I was stable in sizes. I bought my first rig with a Pilot 168 and the piloting skills foundation came from the additional time I spent under the N240. 

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I never jumped a Triathlon but I did jump a Spectre for a few years.

The Spectre always landed very well, but the openings were unpredictable.

I transitioned to a Storm with Dacron lines and I haven't been disappointed.

If a smooth opening is high on your list of priorities then I would highly recommend

those bulky Dacron lines on whatever canopy you choose.  You wont be the "Cool Gal"

on the dropzone, but your Chiropractor won't be making a fortune off you.

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15 hours ago, Jumpingeezer said:

If a smooth opening is high on your list of priorities then I would highly recommend

those bulky Dacron lines on whatever canopy you choose. 

This this this!  Dacron lines on my Spectre.  Compared to my last one with microline, the difference in openings is pretty impressive.  I should have mentioned that in my first post.  

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(edited)
On 5/15/2020 at 8:58 PM, tabouare said:

It sounds like you're very new and I would suggest renting if you can instead of buying at this time. As an example, my home DZ offers these rental sizes to allow us to downsize safely when we're ready to do so.

Yes I'm very new and I have my last few jumps to the licence. Only 6 weeks ago I was told, that I had a disc prolapse. My pain didn't go away since my landing last year and my chiropractor couldn't help me, so I visited my ortopedist. He gave me the diagnostic and that there is a further very small intervertebral disc bulge in the near. The last weeks I did more sport almost every day to strengthen my lower back, was on the water for SUPing to train my deep muscles, stretching...

Yes, it is very early to think about an own canopy and it wasn't my plan to do so early. But with this diagnosis I had to change my opinion to jump as long as possible with rental stuff. In the moment I'll have to - but I also have to find the right for my back. And that's why I have to ask now. The own canopy will come at the earliest in winter I think - if I'll find one.

On 5/15/2020 at 8:58 PM, tabouare said:

I'm the same weight as you but it took me 24 jumps on a N240 to be able to time the flare properly.

It's good to hear, that other had the same problems. I also jump on a N240. The canopies for rental are PD Silhouettes.

On 5/16/2020 at 12:45 AM, Jumpingeezer said:

highly recommend those bulky Dacron lines on whatever canopy you choose.  You wont be the "Cool Gal"on the dropzone, but your Chiropractor won't be making a fortune off you.

This sound great! Thank you for the hint! I will keep that in mind!

Edited by Crescentia

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3 hours ago, Crescentia said:

Only 6 weeks ago I was told, that I had a disc prolapse. My pain didn't go away since my landing last year and my chiropractor couldn't help me, so I visited my ortopedist. He gave me the diagnostic and that there is a further very small intervertebral disc bulge in the near. The last weeks I did more sport almost every day to strengthen my lower back, was on the water for SUPing to train my deep muscles, stretching...

Please get your orthopedist's opinion on whether or not jumping could aggravate the problem.  If the doc says it's not a good idea, listen. Skydiving is awesome, but back surgery sucks. 

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(edited)
11 hours ago, skybytch said:

Skydiving is awesome, but back surgery sucks

yes indeed. I have to ask him directly. He knows, that I do Skydive but he hasn't said anything the last time, when I visited him, if I can jump. But weeks ago it wasn't a theme, because in germany we had the Corona-Shut-Down and nobody where allowed to jump and it seemed that this would be for a very long time. But in the moment we get loosenings and maybe in a few weeks we all can jump... First DZ has opended and were allowed to jump (but without students)...


I hope so that I can jump, because only 5 Jumps (+ repetition, because of the break) and I have my licence...when I don't jump this year anymore my licence is lost :-( because of timing.

But yes, I have to ask :-(.

Edited by Crescentia
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