I Hate Trump

[olofscience 420]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

California alone has lost almost a million middle-class jobs to China.      

Well said. The problem is very real. But it's not China.

The "middle class" jobs in China pay about $20k per year. $4k per year could even be considered "middle class" in China.

Bring those all back, sure. Then even the gig economy would look well-paying by comparison.

[jakee 1,254]

 

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I think the worst you’ve heard me say is, “I hate Hillary.” And, I had strong reasons as to why, but those fell on deaf ears, never mind the facts, because she was just the right person for you guys at the time.

Bollocks. You were asked time and time again why you hate Hillary so much and time and time again you refused to answer. It's insulting to accuse the people you disagree with of having 'deaf ears' when you didn't give them anything to listen to.

Edited May 8, 2020 by jakee

[Phil1111 908]

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

Right, so China is an example where we can compare the raw numbers to show how the U.S didn't fair as well.  However, even if China had 200,000 deaths and the U.S had 75,000 deaths, The U.S still wouldn't be fairing as well.   You'd have to compare rates before even attempting to draw conclusions.

Also, something tells me you would've had a problem with Trump treating the people/states like a communist dictator, especially if it was before cases even started showing up in the U.S.

 

Or, here's an idea, you could just look on the internet and see that both SK and Australia have lover death rates.

If you want to start combining countries, I'd say the entire Schengen area is more comparable to the contiguous U.S - and the last I checked, (about 3 weeks ago) they had a death rate that was about 2 times higher. (most likely due to higher population density)

Oh come on I expect more and better from you. Why don't you throw out NY, New Jersey and just pick Montana. rushmc isn't helping you is he?

[airdvr 197]

On 5/7/2020 at 12:56 PM, kallend said:

Wrong - I care what you think.  I'm interested in the mind set of a die-hard Trumpist about his well documented shortcomings.

Ok John...you want to know my feelings about Trump?  I feel about him the same way I feel about every other lifetime politician who's held a position in DC, Republican or Democrat.  They're all fucking snakes only interested in themselves and they've spent the last 50 years at least, selling the US down the river.  They spout pre-planned bullshit speeches designed to pull the wool over our eyes and it works.  They play R against D and D against R, all the while knowing that if we were woke we'd see that they are the problem.

Do I love Trump?  No...but I know who he is more than any other politician because he isn't scripted.  Will I vote for him again?  I don't know.  I was hoping the Dems would put up someone that would make the choice easier for me.  I don't really want a continuation of Trump.  They didn't. I believe Biden is a good egg but he's one of the career pols that would lie when the truth would sound better.  I'm not even sure he would recognize a lie v. the truth anymore.

SO I hope this answers your question.

 

[kallend 1,620]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

It’s not so much about “Trump” as it is about being a Republican and its assault on the institution as a whole. You'll note I haven't been as engaged on here as before.  We’ve all been around long enough to know that everything is cyclical.

 

Thank you.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

10 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Ok John...you want to know my feelings about Trump?  I feel about him the same way I feel about every other lifetime politician who's held a position in DC, Republican or Democrat.  They're all fucking snakes only interested in themselves and they've spent the last 50 years at least, selling the US down the river.  They spout pre-planned bullshit speeches designed to pull the wool over our eyes and it works.  They play R against D and D against R, all the while knowing that if we were woke we'd see that they are the problem.

Do I love Trump?  No...but I know who he is more than any other politician because he isn't scripted.  Will I vote for him again?  I don't know.  I was hoping the Dems would put up someone that would make the choice easier for me.  I don't really want a continuation of Trump.  They didn't. I believe Biden is a good egg but he's one of the career pols that would lie when the truth would sound better.  I'm not even sure he would recognize a lie v. the truth anymore.

SO I hope this answers your question.

 

Thanks for an honest answer.

But I have to ask:

How do you not see Trump as far, far worse than any 'career politician'?

You say "I know who he is more than any other politician", yet ignore the destruction he is bringing on the basic institutions of ths country.

One of the scariest things he's currently doing is dismantling the intelligence community. 

He's appointing sychopants who are pretending that Russia didn't interfere with the election. Basically opening the door for Putin to do it again. 

He's also systematically dismantling the oversight capabilities of various parts of the government.

When the stimulus package was being put together, he was asked about 'oversight of the money going to corporations'. His response was that HE would over see it.

The idea of the guy who was barred from running his own charitable foundation becuase of misuse of funds overseeing the disbursment of billions of dollars of the taxpayer money would be laughable...
But he was serious.

How can you find this behavior acceptable? 

[Coreece 189]

34 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

If you want to start combining countries, I'd say the entire Schengen area is more comparable to the contiguous U.S - and the last I checked, (about 3 weeks ago) they had a death rate that was about 2 times higher. (most likely due to higher population density)

Oh come on I expect more and better from you.

Maybe you can do better?  Can you think of a better geographical region that shares more similarity to the contiguous U.S than the Schengen area in terms of population, culture, travel, level of tourism, etc.?

 

58 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Why don't you throw out NY, New Jersey and just pick Montana.

Because that's your problem, Phil.  You start with the U.S and then compare it to some cherry pick countries with the lowest raw numbers, lol.

It'd be nice if you were honest enough to start with the U.S and at least attempt to find similar regions to compare it to, and then run the numbers - especially if you're going to start drawing conclusions from the raw data.

And I'm not saying that you can't compare the U.S to smaller countries, it's just that it'd be nice to discuss reasons for various disparities other than, "because Trump."

[SkyDekker 1,121]

3 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Can you think of a better geographical region that shares more similarity to the contiguous U.S than the Schengen area in terms of population, culture, travel, level of tourism, etc.?

The population and culture of the Schengen area is absolutely nothing like the US.

[Coreece 189]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

The population and culture of the Schengen area is absolutely nothing like the US.

I was thinking it terms of Italian families in the U.S being as touchy-feely as Italians in Italy.

And yes, the Schegen area is about 400+ Million and the US 300+ Million, not exact but better than comparing it to a country with 300+ thousand or whatever.

The main difference is that the U.S isn't as dense as Europe.

[Phil1111 908]

3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The population and culture of the Schengen area is absolutely nothing like the US.

Completely correct. It has a population density of 97 per sq KM and the US has 94 per square mile. So 2.6 times as dense Now Coreece knows this of course.

[Coreece 189]

12 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

21 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The population and culture of the Schengen area is absolutely nothing like the US.

Completely correct. It has a population density of 97 per sq KM and the US has 94 per square mile. So 2.6 times as dense Now Coreece knows this of course.

Duh, I just said that the main difference was that the U.S isn't as dense as Europe.  That doesn't negate other simalarities that contribute to the spread of covid.

 

Also, are you just going to ignore my question, or can you not find a more comparable region?

Edited May 8, 2020 by Coreece

[Phil1111 908]

39 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Duh, I just said that the main difference was that the U.S isn't as dense as Europe.  That doesn't negate other simalarities that contribute to the spread of covid.

 

Also, are you just going to ignore my question, or can you not find a more comparable region?

The Schengen area is comparable in health care and demographics. It is substantially denser. The US had the advantage of a one month delay between Chinese disclosures and US infections.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

13 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

The Schengen area is comparable in health care

No it isn't.

[Phil1111 908]

5 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

No it isn't.

About 4% worse.

'The average life expectancy in Western Europe was 79 years for males and 84 years for females in 2019.Sep 20, 2019"

United States

Overall 78.9 Female

81.4  Male

76.3

 

[jakee 1,254]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

Do I love Trump?  No...but I know who he is more than any other politician because he isn't scripted.  Will I vote for him again?  I don't know.  I was hoping the Dems would put up someone that would make the choice easier for me.  I don't really want a continuation of Trump.  They didn't. I believe Biden is a good egg but he's one of the career pols that would lie when the truth would sound better.  I'm not even sure he would recognize a lie v. the truth anymore.

Thing is, if you know who Trump is you know that he lies far more than any other politician. He's also presiding over a rapid acceleration in gutting the Federal government of senior career non-partisan subject matter experts and putting more decision making in the hands of political appointees instead. If you don't like career politicians because they're out for themselves consider that a vote for Trump is a vote for unprecedented cronyism.

In fact, leave aside all the personal stuff, leave aside whether any of his individual policies are good or bad and there is one thing completely unconnected to right or left wing politics that I think everyone should agree should instantly disqualify Trump from being thought of as a remotely suitable candidate for re-election, and that one thing is Jared Kushner. It is horrifying, it is unconscionable that this degree of nepotism inside the government is even legal, let alone actually happening. The idea that it is even appropriate for one political appointee without official office should be in charge of everything from fighting the opioid crisis, to modernising the VA, to creating peace in the ME, to procurement and distribution of all federal medical supplies during the current epidemic is strange. The idea that person should be a troubled real estate developer and trust fund kid whose only qualification for any sort of role in government is being married to the president's daughter is something I still struggle to believe is actually happening. It's not OK on any level. He may lead the country but it doesn't belong to him and it is not something to be divvied up between members of his own family. 

[SkyDekker 1,121]

26 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

About 4% worse.

'The average life expectancy in Western Europe was 79 years for males and 84 years for females in 2019.Sep 20, 2019"

United States

Overall 78.9 Female

81.4  Male

76.3

 

Health care is more than life expectancy. The whole attitude towards health care, the delivery of care, the availability of care, the cost of care is entirely different. Other than the fact it involves doctors and nurses, there is very little comparison.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

12 minutes ago, jakee said:

Thing is, if you know who Trump is you know that he lies far more than any other politician.

Somehow it would appear that they prefer someone who they know is lying over somebody who might be lying.

[normiss 620]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

 and that one thing is Jared Kushner.

That one thing was refused a security clearance as well. THAT bothers me tremendously given where he is, what he has access to, and what he's doing.

[Phil1111 908]

5 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Health care is more than life expectancy. The whole attitude towards health care, the delivery of care, the availability of care, the cost of care is entirely different. Other than the fact it involves doctors and nurses, there is very little comparison.

Its not much more than life expectancy.  The US has the most expensive system for outcomes. But generally speaking life expectancy factors more variables than any other. If in fact some portion of the population is uninsured whatsoever. Life expectancy would be dragged down more so than states with universal, free care.

As such the US would be operating under a greater handicap with poor uninsured people than anyone in the EU. Which has universal care.

[Coreece 189]

11 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

As such the US would be operating under a greater handicap with poor uninsured people than anyone in the EU. Which has universal care.

Any thought on why areas like the U.K and France have covid fatality rates that are twice as high as the world average?

[Phil1111 908]

7 hours ago, Coreece said:

Duh, I just said that the main difference was that the U.S isn't as dense as Europe.  That doesn't negate other simalarities that contribute to the spread of covid.

 

Also, are you just going to ignore my question, or can you not find a more comparable region?

Upon reflection and I think this whole social isolation is brain benumbing. There is no need for factoring population density. If it was such an important factor. China would never have gotten C-19 under control.

The fact that it originated in Wuhan and its more open now, with fewer restrictions than most US states. When China has city state areas of populations of six exceeding 10 million.

This graph shows that even with a one month delay and warning of C-19. China and every other country with reasonable testing has "flattened the curve" except the US. That graph shows US deaths still doubling every four weeks. It also shows six other developed countries with population densities equal or higher than the US. All of which flattened the curve faster than the US(to date).

The only logical conclusion is leadership and the active measures taken to flatten the curve. The US has had the least drag on the upward climb of that curve because of trump. Don't forget the US has the most expensive health care system in the world. United States: $13,722 per person; 16.9% of GDP Which is 2 times the OECD average.

Obviously trump himself stated what the guidelines should be for re-opening the US marketplace and manufacturing. Yet he and his party have refused to follow them. Those of course the guidelines which trump forced the CDC to amend and soften.

In conclusion republicans and trump had the opportunity to bring US health care into alignment with more cost effective models. Yet they failed. Then trump failed to follow his own CDC recommendations which has resulted in tens of thousands of additional fatalities. Naturally his failure to pay proper heed to briefings in January, is a contributing factor.

[Phil1111 908]

4 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Any thought on why areas like the U.K and France have covid fatality rates that are twice as high as the world average?

I'd speculate infections of nursing homes and older population demographics V. other countries.

[Coreece 189]

25 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

There is no need for factoring population density. If it was such an important factor. China would never have gotten C-19 under control.

China is an outlier, we don't know wtf is going on over there.

Density is most obviously a factor, but it's only one factor who's effect is dependent upon many others already mentioned in this thread.

 

27 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

32 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Any thought on why areas like the U.K and France have covid fatality rates that are twice as high as the world average?

I'd speculate infections of nursing homes and older population demographics V. other countries.

But in the other thread you posted an article that said the U.S, France, Belgium and the Netherlands  were the ones that were rectifying the issue with underreporting and that it was the U.K that was still not counting nursing home deaths. (tho that article was from a few weeks ago)

[mistercwood 287]

22 minutes ago, Coreece said:

But in the other thread you posted an article that said the U.S, France, Belgium and the Netherlands  were the ones that were rectifying the issue with underreporting and that it was the U.K that was still not counting nursing home deaths. (tho that article was from a few weeks ago)

I think the numbers right now give us very good guidelines, but as with any pandemic the real numbers aren't going to get locked down (as much as they can be, anyway) until after we're through it.

For every case that the "it's no big deal" crowd say is an over-report (the ones allegedly where a shooting death got listed as CV-19 because they had symptoms), there's probably going to be an early case that was listed as pneumonia that counts as an under-report.

Not taking sides here, just saying the early data has a lot of uncertainty.

Edited May 9, 2020 by mistercwood

[headoverheels 291]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

Any thought on why areas like the U.K and France have covid fatality rates that are twice as high as the world average?

Lots of cheek kissing in France.   BJ in the UK started off in the do nothing herd immunity direction, which allowed cases to spread faster.  Since unchecked spread is something like 10x every 8-9 days, they have more cases than they would have.