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airdvr

I Hate Trump

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16 minutes ago, airdvr said:

No one cares what I think.  I'd seriously be interested in how she feels about this.  Looks like she has an HRC sized appetite for power and notability.  Why would she stay with such a scumbag?

Wrong - I care what you think.  I'm interested in the mind set of a die-hard Trumpist about his well documented shortcomings.

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5 hours ago, kallend said:

Wrong - I care what you think.  I'm interested in the mind set of a die-hard Trumpist about his well documented shortcomings.

What stands out amongst the Trump supporters is the gaping void of anything positive or rational. They will instantly attack if Trump is criticised in any way. However I don’t actually recall any of them providing SPECIFIC positive traits of Trump, or successful outcomes. It’s just ‘you’re a Trump hater...’

We have both been here long enough to remember SC during the first gulf war. The debate then was very different, some defended Bush and his actions, but there was not this attitude of ‘doesn’t matter if he’s never achieved anything, you just hate him’.

To be honest I’m tired of it. I’ve deactivated Facebook and should probably step away from dz.com as really it is just a circular argument that goes nowhere. The odd entertainment when Q+ or Q++ (god himself) talks to Ron but that’s about it. I am sick to death of Trump and Corona virus. Let’s have a good old discussion about religion of guns that doesn’t include those two

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10 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

To be honest I’m tired of it. I’ve deactivated Facebook

How good is it? I deleted mine over a year ago.  I do miss catching up with some people but most have some sort of messaging app we can use.

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What I find interesting is that as a narcissist type person how Trump has literally got the entire world focussed on HIM. Look back at this forum, we used to have entire threads on war, guns, religion. Mostly arguments would deteriorate to nazi type allegations. Now nothing is spoken about without Trump coming into it. 
I feel the world has shrunk because of Trump. Intelligent discussion is extremely rare.

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10 hours ago, nigel99 said:

we used to have entire threads on war, guns, religion.

And, we used to respect each other for our differences. Many times it was an atmosphere of learning and open discussion. It was a time when getting close to those allegations were met with "Your one warning." 

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I think a large part of that is situational.

The pandemic has the attention of the whole world. 
Not a whole lot else is being talked about anywhere.

The US has the largest number of cases, the most deaths. By far. 

Trump has made it worse. By far.

He's also made it about him.
Mostly in a negative way.
His denial of it being a problem at the beginning, his blatant cronyism with federal supplies, his absolutely moronic pronouncements.
Even the 'open up' protests can be traced back to him. The organizers of them (the ones behind the scenes) are Trump campaign donors for the most part. Koch bros, DeVos, many others.

There's still some intelligent discussion.
You just have to block out the trolls & idiots (often a '2 for 1').

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6 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

And, we used to respect each other for our differences. Many times it was an atmosphere of learning and open discussion. It was a time when getting close to those allegations were met with "Your one warning." 

How do YOU feel about Trump?  You seem much more objective than Airdvr (who refuses to answer the question).

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Some of the refusal to engage is probably the dogpiling that happens when someone actually answers a question that is disagreed with by certain members. Discussion generally involves respect of the other person's right to their viewpoint, and an interest in how they got there. Which means that starting out with words that effectively equate to "how can you be so stupid" don't really encourage people to keep going.

Yeah, I realize that's not very Socratic or tough-minded of me, but, well, tough shit. I'm probably not the only one who feels this way.

Wendy P.

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6 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Some of the refusal to engage is probably the dogpiling that happens when someone actually answers a question that is disagreed with by certain members.

It is beyond dispute that Trump:

Lies.

Fails to keep promises (where is the great healthcare he promised? Who paid for The Wall? Is she locked up?)

Has been found guilty of fraudulent business practices.

Hired a fixer who turned out to be a felon.

Is on video admitting to being a sexual predator.

 

I think it a very fair question to ask Trump supporters how they reconcile their support with those facts.

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21 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The US has the largest number of cases, the most deaths. By far.

Generally because they have more people.  By far.

 

31 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

There's still some intelligent discussion.
You just have to block out the trolls & idiots

Yeah, like the idiots that don't know the difference between rates and raw numbers & the trolls that deliberately ignore it.

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27 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I think a large part of that is situational.

The pandemic has the attention of the whole world. 
Not a whole lot else is being talked about anywhere.

The US has the largest number of cases, the most deaths. By far. 

Trump has made it worse. By far.


There's still some intelligent discussion.
You just have to block out the trolls & idiots (often a '2 for 1').

 

28 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

And, we used to respect each other for our differences. Many times it was an atmosphere of learning and open discussion. It was a time when getting close to those allegations were met with "Your one warning." 

 

6 minutes ago, kallend said:

It is beyond dispute that Trump:...

I think it a very fair question to ask Trump supporters how they reconcile their support with those facts.

Discussion and debate should center upon fact. Those that want to discuss guns, religion, etc. are welcome to initiate. Its no secret.

Dog-piling substantially arises because posters, sidestep, obscure, disregard and provide false narratives to defend their positions. If they stated sound facts. Then facts would be the subject. trump dominates because science, fact and the institutions of good governance. Are but tools for his politicization. his rule is, my way, my base and F*#k everyone else. No compromise, no accommodation. His supporters want it that way. Certainly here, in these forums the admissions of wrongdoing by refusing compromise are never put forth.

Finally after three and a half years of this. Those that object to this style are fed up. Germany,France,Austria, Canada and other countries flirted with trump style populists. They were voted into obscurity.

.

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Well, dogpiling generally won't get the information. It'll get either fighting back (cornered folks fight back regardless), or just leaving. If your point is to find out how the fuck they think that way, you've failed. If you're trying to convince them of your innate intellectual and moral superiority, you don't need them for that, you can just announce it.

Note that I'm not an antagonistic debater; I don't like it, and I give up some intellectual rigor by it. On the other hand, I gain interaction with people whose viewpoints differ from mine, who are willing to engage with me. To me, that's a win. YMMV.

And yeah, there are people on my ignore list...

Wendy P.

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12 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Generally because they have more people.  By far.

Yeah, like the idiots that don't know the difference between rates and raw numbers & the trolls that deliberately ignore it.

China population 1.393 billion. That would be a "raw number"

US population  .328 billion that would be a raw number. I'll let you provide the total cases of both as determined by testing and total deaths.

S. Korea 51 million.  10,800 C-19 cases

Australia 25 million   6,833 cases

SK and Australia Total 75 million and 17,600 C-19 cases. So the respective rate for the US would be(4.37 times those two respective populations) 77,000 total C-19 cases. The US has what, 76,500 DEATHS

 

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9 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Well, dogpiling generally won't get the information. It'll get either fighting back (cornered folks fight back regardless), or just leaving. If your point is to find out how the fuck they think that way, you've failed. If you're trying to convince them of your innate intellectual and moral superiority, you don't need them for that, you can just announce it.

Note that I'm not an antagonistic debater; I don't like it, and I give up some intellectual rigor by it. On the other hand, I gain interaction with people whose viewpoints differ from mine, who are willing to engage with me. To me, that's a win. YMMV.

And yeah, there are people on my ignore list...

Wendy P.

Well you're right about most of everything there. Prior to discourse with Ron I had no idea such people existed. As to trump supporters reading other sources, which I've quoted here before. Has given the most insight on the psychological profiles of trump supporters.

One thing that "dogpiling", er debate here has shown is the absolute dedication of his 38% base. Of how firm the backbone of his support remains.

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3 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

China population 1.393 billion. That would be a "raw number"

US population  .328 billion that would be a raw number. I'll let you provide the total cases of both as determined by testing and total deaths.

And the best part of the current administration's approach to handling COVID is that by making testing a state affair rather than a national affair, it becomes more of a shitshow, and less measurable, because it varies more. With the mixture of approaches, it becomes nearly impossible to measure how well the US is handling it, so apologists will always find something they can like.

I may not enjoy ventilating a topic with loud and antagonistic argument, but I do prize intellectual honesty, and this administration has virtually none. The end, as determined by dogma, justifies the means and arguments. What bullshit.

Wendy P.

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9 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

And the best part of the current administration's approach to handling COVID is that by making testing a state affair rather than a national affair, it becomes more of a shitshow, and less measurable, because it varies more. With the mixture of approaches, it becomes nearly impossible to measure how well the US is handling it, so apologists will always find something they can like.

I may not enjoy ventilating a topic with loud and antagonistic argument, but I do prize intellectual honesty, and this administration has virtually none. The end, as determined by dogma, justifies the means and arguments. What bullshit.

Wendy P.

Agree. Coreece and I get into it on occasion. But one thing that he brings to the equation is direct research into supporting facts. As such he is more or less intellectually honest. As compared to quotes of WH press secretary's..

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:
1 hour ago, Coreece said:

Generally because they have more people.  By far.

Yeah, like the idiots that don't know the difference between rates and raw numbers & the trolls that deliberately ignore it.

China population 1.393 billion. That would be a "raw number"

Right, so China is an example where we can compare the raw numbers to show how the U.S didn't fair as well.  However, even if China had 200,000 deaths and the U.S had 75,000 deaths, The U.S still wouldn't be fairing as well.   You'd have to compare rates before even attempting to draw conclusions.

Also, something tells me you would've had a problem with Trump treating the people/states like a communist dictator, especially if it was before cases even started showing up in the U.S.

 

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

SK and Australia Total 75 million and 17,600 C-19 cases. So the respective rate for the US would be(4.37 times those two respective populations) 77,000 total C-19 cases. The US has what, 76,500 DEATHS

Or, here's an idea, you could just look on the internet and see that both SK and Australia have lover death rates.

If you want to start combining countries, I'd say the entire Schengen area is more comparable to the contiguous U.S - and the last I checked, (about 3 weeks ago) they had a death rate that was about 2 times higher. (most likely due to higher population density)

Edited by Coreece

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2 hours ago, kallend said:

How do YOU feel about Trump?  You seem much more objective than Airdvr (who refuses to answer the question).

It’s not so much about “Trump” as it is about being a Republican and its assault on the institution as a whole. You'll note I haven't been as engaged on here as before.  We’ve all been around long enough to know that everything is cyclical.

At no time during Obama’s era did you hear me say any of the vile things that you guys are saying now. Never called you an Obamette, uneducated, or the litany of other expletives directed at some’s value system as a whole. Never heard me say, “Piss on his grave, anyone with a thinking brain, if my guy was guilty of raping 47 women . . .etc.”

I think the worst you’ve heard me say is, “I hate Hillary.” And, I had strong reasons as to why, but those fell on deaf ears, never mind the facts, because she was just the right person for you guys at the time. But again; I did not attack you personally as being uneducated, or hope to live long enough to piss on her grave. She represented your institution and philosophy. Even if she had won, in time, she too would have been voted out or left the office.

I have sided with you guys on gun control and yet; you completely  ignored the tactical point of “Well-regulated” and the ammunition I served up for your side to become more successful in your campaigns towards gun control. And, your battle cry remained “Ban.” Never mind that a fork or a baseball bat can be an assault weapon. I guess I’m fortunate enough to have been in weapons long enough to know that we shouldn’t be scared of the tool as much as the person wielding that tool. That is the real issue.  

We differed in opinion on healthcare, not so much on the point itself, but its deployment. We have a “social” healthcare system in the U.S. It’s called the VA. It can be a lifesaver at times but is fraught with process issues. My point has always been – “Fix that” and then you have a model to point to and say – it works. Until graduates of John Hopkins or any of the other prestigious medical schools have graduates applying to work at the VA; then something is wrong. Until they can excel in research as much as other institutions, then something is wrong. Until they can perform a live-saving cardio-thoracic surgery or even a knee replacement without farming it out to the private sector; then something is wrong.

Due to education on this site; I changed my views on “Climate Change” to the point that I can’t even read the age-old thread without throwing up my hands and thinking even one of my own doesn’t get it.

The environment here has changed so much that things that would have used to get you a ban doesn’t even merit a “One warning” anymore no matter which side. The value on here has degenerated from us knowing each other and having some modicum of respect to become another faceless soul on the internet left to defending personal attacks on one’s value system and if you don’t believe in their way; you must be an idiot.

Well, this idiot is done with the verbal lashings that would be considered anywhere else other than the Internet to be - verbal assault. The US is a Banana Republic. Give me a break. There was a time when no matter what side you were on; we were patriotic enough to have shut that down; rather than amplify it.

Trump? Well, there is a lot of people that believe he is right about one thing. We, as a nation; have to do something more about producing & manufacturing more goods here in the U.S than we do movies and fast-food franchises. That we shouldn’t be doing “business” with a communist country, much less have our entire supply steam interrupted. If that in of itself does not give us a wake-up call, then there are those of us that do believe we are doomed and our whole way of life jeopardized.  

That industry has to change to provide more jobs for the middle-class. That the middle-class is the backbone of this country. One cannot continue to complain about the inequities of wealth while not championing the need for more well-paying jobs that are based on production and competition, rather than legislation to increase the minimum wage. That used to be one of the primary tenets of the Democratic party. You know. The whole FDR thing of creating work programs, to produce, to give people pride in a work ethic.

A lot of Americans believe the world needs to be a level playing field. If we are to lose jobs (entire industries) in steel, coal, cotton, aluminum, technology, automobiles (Harley for God’s sake) etc. or whatever because of EPA standards, then those same standards need to apply to the rest of the world. And, when people buy products from a communist country that have any of those elements that used to be “Made in America,” they get angry. Especially, if they or a member of their family lost their jobs in that industry. California alone has lost almost a million middle-class jobs to China.       

To hope that our children learn to respect and honor Veterans, Firefighters, and the like and to “follow” them rather than the Kardashians or Justin Beibers. Hell, most kids these days can tell you the exact location of a Kardashian in Wyoming, but cannot locate Belize on a map of Central America.

Trump may not be the man, but he does represent the sentiment. I may not like or agree with the man on all things, but I do know that he is the only one saying these things – and, that’s what America wants to hear. That is why he has the base he does.  

But, I ramble. I guess I am left with some wonderful memories of times spent with Nigel, Wendy, Bill, Wendy, Turtlespeed, et.al. But, it is just memories and not a reflection of the interactions on here. Peace.

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2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Generally because they have more people.  By far.

 

Yeah, like the idiots that don't know the difference between rates and raw numbers & the trolls that deliberately ignore it.

So like your president, who constantly touts the number of tests as an indication of how great he is.

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37 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

At no time during Obama’s era did you hear me say any of the vile things that you guys are saying now.

You guys? Who?

You guys during the Obama administration:

  • Compared him and his wife to monkeys
  • Circulated racist meme after racists meme
  • etc.

What has been said about trump is based on his actions and his words, all things under his own control.

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

It’s not so much about “Trump” as it is about being a Republican and its assault on the institution as a whole. You'll note I haven't been as engaged on here as before.  We’ve all been around long enough to know that everything is cyclical.

At no time during Obama’s era did you hear me say any of the vile things that you guys are saying now. Never called you an Obamette, uneducated, or the litany of other expletives directed at some’s value system as a whole. Never heard me say, “Piss on his grave, anyone with a thinking brain, if my guy was guilty of raping 47 women . . .etc.”

I think the worst you’ve heard me say is, “I hate Hillary.” And, I had strong reasons as to why, but those fell on deaf ears, never mind the facts, because she was just the right person for you guys at the time. But again; I did not attack you personally as being uneducated, or hope to live long enough to piss on her grave. She represented your institution and philosophy. Even if she had won, in time, she too would have been voted out or left the office.

I have sided with you guys on gun control and yet; you completely  ignored the tactical point of “Well-regulated” and the ammunition I served up for your side to become more successful in your campaigns towards gun control. And, your battle cry remained “Ban.” Never mind that a fork or a baseball bat can be an assault weapon. I guess I’m fortunate enough to have been in weapons long enough to know that we shouldn’t be scared of the tool as much as the person wielding that tool. That is the real issue.  

We differed in opinion on healthcare, not so much on the point itself, but its deployment. We have a “social” healthcare system in the U.S. It’s called the VA. It can be a lifesaver at times but is fraught with process issues. My point has always been – “Fix that” and then you have a model to point to and say – it works. Until graduates of John Hopkins or any of the other prestigious medical schools have graduates applying to work at the VA; then something is wrong. Until they can excel in research as much as other institutions, then something is wrong. Until they can perform a live-saving cardio-thoracic surgery or even a knee replacement without farming it out to the private sector; then something is wrong.

Due to education on this site; I changed my views on “Climate Change” to the point that I can’t even read the age-old thread without throwing up my hands and thinking even one of my own doesn’t get it.

The environment here has changed so much that things that would have used to get you a ban doesn’t even merit a “One warning” anymore no matter which side. The value on here has degenerated from us knowing each other and having some modicum of respect to become another faceless soul on the internet left to defending personal attacks on one’s value system and if you don’t believe in their way; you must be an idiot.

Well, this idiot is done with the verbal lashings that would be considered anywhere else other than the Internet to be - verbal assault. The US is a Banana Republic. Give me a break. There was a time when no matter what side you were on; we were patriotic enough to have shut that down; rather than amplify it.

Trump? Well, there is a lot of people that believe he is right about one thing. We, as a nation; have to do something more about producing & manufacturing more goods here in the U.S than we do movies and fast-food franchises. That we shouldn’t be doing “business” with a communist country, much less have our entire supply steam interrupted. If that in of itself does not give us a wake-up call, then there are those of us that do believe we are doomed and our whole way of life jeopardized.  

That industry has to change to provide more jobs for the middle-class. That the middle-class is the backbone of this country. One cannot continue to complain about the inequities of wealth while not championing the need for more well-paying jobs that are based on production and competition, rather than legislation to increase the minimum wage. That used to be one of the primary tenets of the Democratic party. You know. The whole FDR thing of creating work programs, to produce, to give people pride in a work ethic.

A lot of Americans believe the world needs to be a level playing field. If we are to lose jobs (entire industries) in steel, coal, cotton, aluminum, technology, automobiles (Harley for God’s sake) etc. or whatever because of EPA standards, then those same standards need to apply to the rest of the world. And, when people buy products from a communist country that have any of those elements that used to be “Made in America,” they get angry. Especially, if they or a member of their family lost their jobs in that industry. California alone has lost almost a million middle-class jobs to China.       

To hope that our children learn to respect and honor Veterans, Firefighters, and the like and to “follow” them rather than the Kardashians or Justin Beibers. Hell, most kids these days can tell you the exact location of a Kardashian in Wyoming, but cannot locate Belize on a map of Central America.

Trump may not be the man, but he does represent the sentiment. I may not like or agree with the man on all things, but I do know that he is the only one saying these things – and, that’s what America wants to hear. That is why he has the base he does.  

But, I ramble. I guess I am left with some wonderful memories of times spent with Nigel, Wendy, Bill, Wendy, Turtlespeed, et.al. But, it is just memories and not a reflection of the interactions on here. Peace.

Great post and very well said!

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Trump may not be the man, but he does represent the sentiment. I may not like or agree with the man on all things, but I do know that he is the only one saying these things – and, that’s what America wants to hear. That is why he has the base he does.

Fair point. But what has he actually done to accomplish that in the 3 years he has been in office?

  • He has given a massive tax break to the very wealthy. Which has not "trickled down" to the middle class or below.
  • The US created less jobs in the first 3 years under Trump than the last 3 years under Obama.
  • The US economy grew less under Trump than it did under Obama.

So help me understand the continued support for what he says, but the complete lack of recognition of what he has actually done?

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