Pity for the USA

[turtlespeed 212]

Just now, billvon said:

Fun fact - 

During Trump's daily updates over the past few weeks, he spent four hours attacking the press and his political enemies, about 45 minutes tooting his own horn, 10 minutes pushing quack remedies - and less than 4 minutes expressing empathy for people affected by COVID-19.

How much loathing does it take to go through and tally all that up?

[SkyDekker 1,119]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

How much loathing does it take to go through and tally all that up?

About as much as blaming Obama for a terrorist fist jab or wearing a tan suit. But maybe a little less than complaining about his unpresidential use of a selfie-stick.

[turtlespeed 212]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

About as much as blaming Obama for a terrorist fist jab or wearing a tan suit. But maybe a little less than complaining about his unpresidential use of a selfie-stick.

That is probably a fair assessment.

What am I talking about - No way its that little.

Edited April 30, 2020 by turtlespeed

[billvon 2,379]

3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

You can be in charge of a country that is at war, and the war being completely unavoidable.

Yes, you can.  You can also be in charge of a country that is NOT at war and then decide, for your own personal benefit, to declare that there's a war going on.  When that happens - you own that decision.

[turtlespeed 212]

Just now, billvon said:

Yes, you can.  You can also be in charge of a country that is NOT at war and then decide, for your own personal benefit, to declare that there's a war going on.  When that happens - you own that decision.

What exactly are you arguing?

Because Trump said he was a wartime president you are now allocating the covid deaths to him?

[SkyDekker 1,119]

3 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yes, you can.  You can also be in charge of a country that is NOT at war and then decide, for your own personal benefit, to declare that there's a war going on.  When that happens - you own that decision.

Turtle, the one always on here taking such a principled stand, dances in circles to try and deflect anything away from Trump. Arguing Trump simply cannot be responsible for anything he says or does.

All while maintaining he doesn't support Trump at all.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Turtle, the one always on here taking such a principled stand, dances in circles to try and deflect anything away from Trump. Arguing Trump simply cannot be responsible for anything he says or does.

All while maintaining he doesn't support Trump at all.

 

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Turtle, the one always on here taking such a principled stand, dances in circles to try and deflect anything away from Trump. Arguing Trump simply cannot be responsible for anything he says or does.

All while maintaining he doesn't support Trump at all.

Why make this about me - stick to the topic please.

 

[SkyDekker 1,119]

3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

What exactly are you arguing?

Because Trump said he was a wartime president you are now allocating the covid deaths to him?

That as Commander-in-Chief Trump has already lost more Americans than during the Vietnam war.

[turtlespeed 212]

3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

That as Commander-in-Chief Trump has already lost more Americans than during the Vietnam war.

Again - if the war he believes he is fighting was avoidable - your argument has merit, since it wasn't avoidable, then it simply doesn't.

 

I will concede that It does sound great as a "Gotcha Moment" if you are a Trump basher, though doesn't it?

Edited April 30, 2020 by turtlespeed

[ryoder 1,380]

5 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

That as Commander-in-Chief Trump has already lost more Americans than during the Vietnam war.

The Vietnam War ran from 1961-02-28 to 1975-05-07, a little over 14 years, and took 4 presidents: JFK, LBJ, RMK, & GRF.

But DJT beat that body count in just 3 months! Winning!

[SkyDekker 1,119]

3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Again - if the war he believes he is fighting was avoidable - your argument has merit, since it wasn't avoidable, then it simply doesn't.

So Trump is a wartime president, but he is not responsible for anything negative. Way to stand for something Turtle!

[billvon 2,379]

9 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

What exactly are you arguing?

Because Trump said he was a wartime president you are now allocating the covid deaths to him?

Nope. No more than I attribute all the Vietnam deaths to any one US president.

If he hadn't declared he was a wartime president, then the deaths under him couldn't be compared to Vietnam.  But he decided to do just that.  His decision; his responsibility.

[SkyDekker 1,119]

2 minutes ago, ryoder said:

The Vietnam War ran from 1961-02-28 to 1975-05-07, a little over 14 years, and took 4 presidents: JFK, LBJ, RMK, & GRF.

But DJT beat that body count in just 3 months! Winning!

Ask Turtle, DJT cannot be responsible since it was all unavoidable.

[turtlespeed 212]

2 minutes ago, billvon said:

Nope. No more than I attribute all the Vietnam deaths to any one US president.

If he hadn't declared he was a wartime president, then the deaths under him couldn't be compared to Vietnam.  But he decided to do just that.  His decision; his responsibility.

Just because you choose to view it that way doesn't make it so.

The difference is that decisions were made to go to war and send troops to their deaths.

This is nothing like that.

Did Clinton saying that he was the "first black president" actually make him the first black president?

[turtlespeed 212]

4 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Ask Turtle, DJT cannot be responsible since it was all unavoidable.

Do you think HRC, as president would have been responsible for any Covid deaths in the US?

If Biden is elected, anyone that dies from covid after the election is now his responsibility?

[billvon 2,379]

Just now, turtlespeed said:

If Biden is elected, anyone that dies from covid after the election is now his responsibility?

If he screws up - absolutely.  (Perhaps a good reason for Trump to hope for a defeat.)

[turtlespeed 212]

4 minutes ago, billvon said:

If he screws up - absolutely.  (Perhaps a good reason for Trump to hope for a defeat.)

That's not reasonable.  I can see where if Trump sends 50000 people to Somewhereistan and they all get killed - its all on him - but not all the deaths from this bullshit.

I'll give him some culpability for how it was handled early on, but it just makes no logical sense to blame him for vietnam era numbers of deaths.

Like I said earlier - It does look good as a "Gotcha" moment for the trump bashers, doesn't it?

Edited April 30, 2020 by turtlespeed

[SkyDekker 1,119]

3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Do you think HRC, as president would have been responsible for any Covid deaths in the US?

If she had declared herself a wartime president, then spent her press briefings on talking about her TV ratings. Yes.

 

4 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

If Biden is elected, anyone that dies from covid after the election is now his responsibility?

If the pandemic is ongoing and his lack of action or his lack of taking any responsibility leads to deaths, yes.

Have you ever been a leader in any capacity? Have you ever had to take responsibility for the actions of a team of people you are responsible for? Or have you always just pointed at other people?

[turtlespeed 212]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

If she had declared herself a wartime president, then spent her press briefings on talking about her TV ratings. Yes.

 

If the pandemic is ongoing and his lack of action or his lack of taking any responsibility leads to deaths, yes.

Have you ever been a leader in any capacity? Have you ever had to take responsibility for the actions of a team of people you are responsible for? Or have you always just pointed at other people?

Yes, I have, an I still do.

Me taking personal responsibility for a team failure or mistake gave the people interested a point of blame.

Is that what you are interested in with Trump?  You need a point of blame?

[olofscience 420]

3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

but not all the deaths from this bullshit.

If the US had kept to the same level of deaths per capita as South Korea, there would be 1,659 deaths in total by now. Currently it's 62,378.

 

South Korea even had that "oh no" moment when 1 person attended an event with 9000+ other people. Yet they kept deaths under 250.

[olofscience 420]

Just now, olofscience said:

If the US had kept to the same level of deaths per capita as South Korea, there would be 1,659 deaths in total by now. Currently it's 62,378.

 

South Korea even had that "oh no" moment when 1 person attended an event with 9000+ other people. Yet they kept deaths under 250.

I know, I know, we need to lower our standards for the US...

[SkyDekker 1,119]

4 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Me taking personal responsibility for a team failure or mistake gave the people interested a point of blame.

No it didn't. And if that is why you did it, you are a piss poor leader and simply do not understand anything about leadership. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by SkyDekker

[SivaGanesha 2]

On 4/27/2020 at 4:41 PM, kallend said:

However bad things are for most other rich democracies...

 

I think that is the point. O'Toole is writing from the perspective of other rich democracies, and it may be a correct view from that perspective. It is not necessarily a worldwide view. The USA is still an attractive destination from the point of view of people from other countries who are truly hurting and want to seek a better life. Have a look at the following site which admittedly was before coronavirus but was after Trump took office:

 

Which countries do migrants want to move to?

 

It shows that the US is still the most popular destination for immigrants worldwide. I know a lot of immigrants from countries like India and China. As the list suggests, other countries like Canada, Germany, and the UK tend to be seen as worthy second choices if they can't get into, or stay, in the USA. But the US is still often the first choice. O'Toole's Ireland isn't on the list at all.

 

Additionally, per capita Ireland is actually harder hit by coronavirus than the US is:

 

COVID-19 Cases per Million Inhabitants: A Comparison

 

In general it seems to be "rich democracies" that are the hardest hit, or maybe they are just able to do more testing?

 

The situation with the migrant caravans traveling to the US from Central American countries through Mexico a year or two ago sent, for me, an interesting and mixed message. On one hand, the Democrats may be correct that they received pretty poor treatment from the Trump administration when they arrived at the border. OTOH, the caravans wouldn't have existed at all if people didn't still want to move to the US, even with Trump in charge.

 

I think O'Toole's comment really nails it, although he may not have intended it. If you are rich and live elsewhere the US has little to offer. But if you are poor and live elsewhere, there is still a perception, even now, that there is a lot of opportunity in the US--if you can get in that is.

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by SivaGanesha

[turtlespeed 212]

12 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

No it didn't. And if that is why you did it, you are a piss poor leader and simply do not understand anything about leadership. 

<facepalm>

[Guest]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:41 AM, kallend said:

All of this came about because of the left's unbridled elitist contempt for the working class.