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ryoder

COVID-19: Astroturfing the "reopen" demonstrations

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4 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Absolutely not.  He did not raise the idea.  The idea was presented to him as a probable future test - You did see him conferring with someone off camera, didn't you?

No. You are flat out wrong. Absolutely and completely wrong. The person he was speaking to was Bill Bryan, who gave a presentation on, as I've already told you, the effect of UV and disinfectants on Coronavirus on surfaces and in saliva. The effects of those things on reducing transmission and exposure. Trump came up with the idea of testing on people all by himself. Bill Bryan absolutely did not make the suggeston to Trump that this would be a future test. First, Trump's own words when he came back to the podium were "So I asked Bill a question". Trump thought of it, it was not presented to him. 2nd, to be absolutely clear, a journalist asked for clarification on this point during the following Q&A. Here it is:

 

Q    But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned.  There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there?  I mean —

ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN:  No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study.  We won’t do that within that lab and our lab

 

I am genuinely amazed right now that you are not fucking ashamed of yourself. You should be embarrassed at the new depths of dishonesty you are plumbing, even for you.

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2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Yes.  where does testing start?  What makes you assume that he meant testing on humans first? 

You'll have to ask him.  All we can go on is what he said (which was, of course, a lie.)

Quote

Is it because you hate him so much that you can't see any other possibility?

Nope.  It's because I have seen him do the same thing for four years.

Fool Turtle once, shame on Trump.  Fool Turtle ~100 times, shame on Turtle.

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2 minutes ago, jakee said:

I am genuinely amazed right now that you are not fucking ashamed of yourself. You should be embarrassed at the new depths of dishonesty you are plumbing, even for you.

You can be amazed all you want.

If you honestly think that Trump was suggesting human trials for any of that, you have a lot more in common with those that took the people that consumed the fish tank cleaner than you realize.

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(edited)
18 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

I know that if or when I have a jaded opinion of someone, it is much harder for me to be objective when listening to them.  I find it almost impossible to give them any benefit of the doubt, or use critical thinking to understand what they are really saying.

And yet when it comes to Trump you give him the benefit of every doubt while not using any critical thinking to understand what he is saying.

 

Once again, UV kills basically every virus there is. Disinfectants kill many types of virus (some are extremely resistant) including all flu viruses. You can carry on with these stupid comparisons with Chemo all you want but do you seriously think that if you could use these things as treatments for people that we wouldn't already be doing it for everything fucking else?

Edited by jakee

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1 minute ago, jakee said:

And yet when it comes to Trump you give him the benefit of every doubt while not using any critical thinking to understand what they are saying.

Perfect example of Trump Defense Syndrome.  Ordinarily intelligent people descending to any level of illogic and irrationality to defend something irrational Trump said.
"Yeah, it's just like chemo!  Chemo's dangerous too.  Yeah, that's the ticket.  He's some kind of genius, he is."

 

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2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

You can be amazed all you want.

If you honestly think that Trump was suggesting human trials for any of that, 

I didn't say he was. Yet again, you fall back on lying in your attempts to defend the indefensible. I'm not joking, you should be ashamed and embarrassed right now.

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7 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

As for disinfectant - yes, the idea seems preposterous, until you look into what chemotherapy chemicals are:  "Alkylating agents are most active in the resting phase of the cell. These types of drugs are cell-cycle non-specific. There are several types of alkylating agents used in chemotherapy treatments: Mustard gas derivatives: Mechlorethamine, Cyclophosphamide, Chlorambucil, Melphalan, and Ifosfamide.

Chemotherapy attacks mechanisms that regulate cell division. There is no doubt that chemotherapy is excruciating and painful. But it's still not as deadly as UV. Cells that can't divide are still alive, UV kills everything.

UV (specifically, UV-C which is used in the sterilizers, 280nm or below wavelength) rips apart DNA and RNA strands.

The mechanism is well known - the photon energy given by Planck's equation e = h*v is higher than the bond energy between DNA and RNA nucleotides, therefore they break it. When the DNA damage is higher than the ability of the cell to repair it, the cell undergoes apoptosis, or cell death. Even UV-B can induce apoptosis and it's the main reason your skin peels after you get sunburned.

 

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2 minutes ago, jakee said:

Once again, UV kills basically every virus there is. Disinfectants kill many types of virus (some are extremely resistant) including all flu viruses. You can carry on with these stupid comparisons with Chemo all you want but do you seriously think that if you could use these things as treatments for people that we wouldn't already be doing it for everything fucking else?

OK - I will continue with the chemo reference - we knows it has other benefits.  The question that has to be answered is whether or not the benefits outweigh the side effects.

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Featured snippet from the web

Chemotherapy is a drug treatment that uses powerful chemicals to kill fast-growing cells in your body. Chemotherapy is most often used to treat cancer, since cancer cells grow and multiply much more quickly than most cells in the body. Many different chemotherapy drugs are available.Mar 5, 2020

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3 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Chemotherapy attacks mechanisms that regulate cell division. There is no doubt that chemotherapy is excruciating and painful. But it's still not as deadly as UV. Cells that can't divide are still alive, UV kills everything.

UV (specifically, UV-C which is used in the sterilizers, 280nm or below wavelength) rips apart DNA and RNA strands.

The mechanism is well known - the photon energy given by Planck's equation e = h*v is higher than the bond energy between DNA and RNA nucleotides, therefore they break it. When the DNA damage is higher than the ability of the cell to repair it, the cell undergoes apoptosis, or cell death. Even UV-B can induce apoptosis and it's the main reason your skin peels after you get sunburned.

 

First off, the chemo reference was put forth because of the disinfectant reference.

It had nothing to do with the argument over UV. 

Some Chemo is a derivative of things like Mustard Gas.  How did we ever figure Mustard Gas was good for killing cancer, and other diseases, when injected into the veins?  Someone had to try it.  

For instance Interferon is a chemotherapy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7138382/

(I didn't read the study, so I don't know the results)

 

But your post focused on UV . . . I would be interested to find out what that effect was.

Has there ever been a test done to measure the effects of UV inside a lung before?  It seems likely there was.

 

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21 minutes ago, billvon said:

Perfect example of Trump Defense Syndrome.  Ordinarily intelligent people descending to any level of illogic and irrationality to defend something irrational Trump said.
"Yeah, it's just like chemo!  Chemo's dangerous too.  Yeah, that's the ticket.  He's some kind of genius, he is."

 

Your hate is coloring your ability to be fair minded in his intent.

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(edited)
22 minutes ago, jakee said:

I didn't say he was. Yet again, you fall back on lying in your attempts to defend the indefensible. I'm not joking, you should be ashamed and embarrassed right now.

Lets play your game.

Trump, in your mind is too ignorant to understand the difference between chemotherapy antivirals and antiseptics, right?

 

Edited by turtlespeed
sp

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2 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Some Chemo is a derivative of things like Mustard Gas.  How did we ever figure Mustard Gas was good for killing cancer, and other diseases, when injected into the veins?  Someone had to try it.  

They didn't test poisons on cancer patients at random, they knew HOW it worked and how cancer worked before even attempting it on animals, and on humans.

 

Cancer cells divide quickly and out of control, which is how cancers spread. Normal cells divide too, but slower. Chemotherapy stops this cell division, slowing or stopping the spread of cancer. It does NOT kill cancer - it just stops it growing so another therapy, surgery, radiation, or the person's immune system can get rid of it.

UV rips DNA apart.

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9 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Has there ever been a test done to measure the effects of UV inside a lung before?  It seems likely there was.

Some people actually spend entire careers evaluating effects of the entire electromagnetic spectrum on human tissue. UV is just a small part of this.

So in a way, the answer is yes. But not lung tissue specifically.

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26 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

OK - I will continue with the chemo reference - we knows it has other benefits.  The question that has to be answered is whether or not the benefits outweigh the side effects.

So you've decided to just be stupid. You've decided not to put one single ounce of critical thought into this, you're just going to blindly support Trump and oppose the leftists no matter how ridiculous the shit you have to say to do it. 

 

Why embarrass yourself like this? What do you get out of it?

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13 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Lets play your game.

Trump, in your mind is too ignorant to understand the difference between chemotherapy antivirals and antiseptics, right?

I have absolutely no idea, and have made no comments remotely related to the subject. Your post is both dishonest and a non-sequitur.

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16 minutes ago, olofscience said:

UV rips DNA apart.

I'm wondering what other kinds of virus killing things Turtle would be happy to see experimented with. I mean, you can burn viruses and it will destroy them. If Trump had said something like "Right.  And then I see the fire, where it knocks it out in a minute.  One minute.  And is there a way we can do something like that, by dowsing with petrol or almost a blowtorch.  Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs.  So it would be interesting to check that.  So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with.  But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me."

 

I wonder what analogies Turtlespeed would have come up with then to explain why setting body parts on fire is actually really similar to established medical procedures like cauterisation and therefore well worth investigating.

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(edited)
5 minutes ago, jakee said:

I'm wondering what other kinds of virus killing things Turtle would be happy to see experimented with.

boiling water or superheated steam is pretty good for sterilizing surgical instruments...

As for DNA destruction, how about tanks of Radon gas - it gets into a patient's lungs - emitting alpha particles though, not UV - then kills lung cells with the virus (plus everything else).

OR just get patients to breathe superheated steam direct from an autoclave ;P

Edited by olofscience

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3 minutes ago, olofscience said:

boiling water or superheated steam is pretty good for sterilizing surgical instruments...

As for DNA destruction, how about tanks of Radon gas - it gets into a patient's lungs - emitting alpha particles though, not UV - then kills lung cells with the virus (plus everything else).

OR just get patients to breathe superheated steam direct from an autoclave ;P

When I worked at a hospital, they used autoclaves for most sterilization, but also used ethylene oxide for items that could not take high temperatures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_oxide

Someone should test inhaling ethylene oxide as a treatment for COVID-19.

 

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10 minutes ago, olofscience said:

boiling water or superheated steam is pretty good for sterilizing surgical instruments...

As for DNA destruction, how about tanks of Radon gas - it gets into a patient's lungs - emitting alpha particles though, not UV - then kills lung cells with the virus (plus everything else).

OR just get patients to breathe superheated steam direct from an autoclave ;P

"I find that to be pretty interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether its superheated steam or whatever, and I think you said, that hasn't been checked but you're gonna test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the steam inside the body, which you can either do either through the skin or some other way, and I think you said you're gonna test that too, sounds interesting. And I then I see all that steam, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by a tube going inside, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that. So you're going to have to use medical doctors, but it sounds interesting to me, so we'll see. But the whole concept of the superheated steam, the way it goes in one minute, that's pretty powerful."

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42 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Your hate is coloring your ability to be fair minded in his intent.

Look in the mirror. It is your hatred of any media or commentators you perceive to be to the left that is colouring your ability to be fair minded. Because they criticise him, you must defend him because you hate them too much to be able to agree. If only you could free yourself of your bias and hatred you wouldn't have to be here saying such dishonest and stupid things. 

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1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

Trump, in your mind is too ignorant to understand the difference between chemotherapy antivirals and antiseptics, right?

Hard to know. However until very recently he was not aware that antibiotics didn't work on viruses, so it isn't a weird assumption to make.

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