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Keithor

ATC2 vs Carve 20

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Posted (edited)

I was very seriously considering an ATC2 for my WS purchase this winter.  I seem to have a bit more time on my hands these days which has had me do more looking, reading, sleeping and even household chores.  Not that anyone cares about the other shit....

Squirrels site has the ATC2 as a pretty good all around canopy that includes some good range to fly with big suits, and a good BASE suit as well.  

PF site it seems like the Strix may be a bit better than the Carve 20, however I don't have enough WS jumps for the Strix yet and not sure if I will take either into the BASE environment anytime soon.  

I am flying a Funk/2 at the moment and have been focusing on doing coach jumps to get my skills up so I feel more comfortable flying with other people.  I had plans of every other weekend travelling to different DZ's in the north north/east to get coaching and spending the other weekends jumping to practice what I had learned.  

My chances of any WS BASE in general are slim as there just arent objects close by for this to happen and I need some more overall big wall experience and many more WS skydives before I consider it.  XRW is something that is probably more realistic and inline with the shorter/mid term goals.  So I think the first question really is can both the ATC2 and Carve20 be used for this?  If the Strix is a better option should I just wait a few months (depending of course when we can start to get back to normal) and keep jumping the Funk, or is the Carve 20 or ATC2 going to be a better option.  

EDITED: I forgot to mention I am not opposed to going to the tunnel once travelling is a realistic option again.  Obviously given current conditions I am not in any huge rush but would like to get the suit ordered in the next few weeks.

Thanks for any input into this.

 

Edited by Keithor

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(edited)

Those are two entirely different suits for different applications. The ATC2, like most of Squirrel's products, is a performance orientated wingsuit. Not in the same way as say a C Race, but the emphasis for that suit is on efficiency and speed well maintaining a platform that is still relatively easyish to fly. The Carve will probably be easier to do transitions and backflying in. The ATC2, like most of Squirrel's suits, will be less forgiving to technique error. However the ATC will still be plenty cake to fly and transition in once you figure it out. It just has a bit of a learning curve to it. In terms of performance there is no comparison. The ATC2 will completely smoke a Carve in straight-line speed at almost any angle of attack. If you're flying a Funk 2 at the moment, the Carve would not really be much of an upgrade. They are the same class of suit. The Carve is just PF's version of the Funk and vise versa.

To answer your question about XRW, yes both the Carve and ATC2 can be used for XRW. The first XRW jump I did was in an ATC1 and it worked great. The Carve may be slightly better for XRW because it's a slower suit which is typically what you want because XRW jumps are usually very slow flights. However, both suits are more than fine for XRW. I use my Freak 3 for XRW and it works good most of the time.

Regarding the Strix, the Strix 1 is more along the lines of an ATC1. The ATC2 will outfly a Strix1. The Strix2 is more along the lines of a Freak2 and it is a solid upgrade over the Strix1. The Strix is a fairly big suit for it's intended application, but there is more to wingsuits than just how large it is. Just because the suit is larger does not mean it is faster in all cases.

Overall unless your focus is acro, I'd recommend the ATC2. The ATC2 is a fantastic intermediate suit with tons of range and the ability to fly with most suits you'd find at the DZ. The Strix 2 is a good option as well but know that it's a bit more powerful than the ATC class. It's more along the lines of the Freak2 class.

Edited by 20kN

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4 hours ago, Keithor said:

I was very seriously considering an ATC2 for my WS purchase this winter.  I seem to have a bit more time on my hands these days which has had me do more looking, reading, sleeping and even household chores.  Not that anyone cares about the other shit....

Squirrels site has the ATC2 as a pretty good all around canopy that includes some good range to fly with big suits, and a good BASE suit as well.  

PF site it seems like the Strix may be a bit better than the Carve 20, however I don't have enough WS jumps for the Strix yet and not sure if I will take either into the BASE environment anytime soon.  

I am flying a Funk/2 at the moment and have been focusing on doing coach jumps to get my skills up so I feel more comfortable flying with other people.  I had plans of every other weekend travelling to different DZ's in the north north/east to get coaching and spending the other weekends jumping to practice what I had learned.  

My chances of any WS BASE in general are slim as there just arent objects close by for this to happen and I need some more overall big wall experience and many more WS skydives before I consider it.  XRW is something that is probably more realistic and inline with the shorter/mid term goals.  So I think the first question really is can both the ATC2 and Carve20 be used for this?  If the Strix is a better option should I just wait a few months (depending of course when we can start to get back to normal) and keep jumping the Funk, or is the Carve 20 or ATC2 going to be a better option.  

EDITED: I forgot to mention I am not opposed to going to the tunnel once travelling is a realistic option again.  Obviously given current conditions I am not in any huge rush but would like to get the suit ordered in the next few weeks.

Thanks for any input into this.

 

If you plan on going to the tunnel for a significant amount of time, it may make sense to get your own carve or magister (depending on body type), as those are the tool of choice.  You'll get more out of your money with a proper-fitting pursuit-specific suit.

Squirrel suits are great, but the DNA of the company is power and not precision - and in a small enclosed space you need the precision.

If you don't think you can handle a Strix, you can't handle an ATC.

As far as a wingsuit for DZ goes, given you have the experience, you'll probably want to invest in whatever is popular at your dropzone (or at least that class of suit) as it'll make flying with the other people at your DZ easier.

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(edited)

The other thing to note is the airspeed in the tunnel is low, presumably for safety reasons. This encourages high AoA, inefficient flight. You don't want to be flying slow in the sky--it's dangerous. So while you can practice transitions in the tunnel, they will not feel the same if done properly in the sky at high speed as they should be.

Edited by 20kN

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On 4/6/2020 at 6:58 PM, timski said:

Get the ATC2, and don't piss away money in a tunnel. My .02. My take on WS tunnels, transitions, what else are you really going to get out of it? 

Precision, control, solid basics on belly and back with correct technique.
Quite similar to vertical tunnel, where a good 10 to 15 years ago, people also said it was useless and wouldn't do to much for skill. 

Quote

The other thing to note is the airspeed in the tunnel is low,

The airspeed is quite similar to what most formation/acro jumps are doing. A good 145 to 180 kmh. The only jumps you really see being faster in the sky is speed rounds for performance, or super steep flocks. But comparing it to normal skydiving, its mostly similar speeds.

Quote

So while you can practice transitions in the tunnel, they will not feel the same if done properly in the sky at high speed as they should be.


Coming from around 900 hours teaching/flying in the Wingsuit Tunnel and a good 4500 Wingsuit Skydives: Transitions in the tunnel feel exactly the same as in the sky.

And changing to a more or less optimal glide, be in tunnel or sky, does not change the technique.  Training with the right technique, it translates to any suit, angle or brand. Most people who have flown in the tunnel come away with exactly the same, and so far the few negatives Ive seen, where usually people who had a bit of a reality check, and noticed their technique and skill where not up to the precision they thought they had. Again, quite similar to freeflying and vertical tunnels.

The tunnel is an amazing, not essential, but revolutionary tool when it comes to skill and precision. The tunnel training translated into flying the best glide and times at various acro competition outdoors. Even there, the results not mesh with the negatives people are writing here.

If interested in Acro..a Havok (or similar sized choice) is never a bad investment.
Even at the current jump numbers and experience, its still the suit I fly most, both in skydive and base. You can't really go wrong with an intermediate size suit in your gearbag, and even if lateron you get into bigger suits, it will always be a suit size you can end up grabbing again for fun formations and acro dives.

 

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(edited)
15 hours ago, mccordia said:

The airspeed is quite similar to what most formation/acro jumps are doing. A good 145 to 180 kmh. The only jumps you really see being faster in the sky is speed rounds for performance, or super steep flocks. But comparing it to normal skydiving, its mostly similar speeds.

I presume you're talking airspeed, which if that's the case 145 KPH is quite slow. That's close to the stall speed of many suits. Even my CR+ cant get much slower than 105 - 110 KPH sustained.

While you are correct that a lot of pilots fly at that speed, especially in the EU, that does not make it ideal. A lot of pilots tend to focus on best glide or best time which are not safe speeds to fly at in many situations. For example, the range of my Freak 3 is about 115 - 310 KPH. At 145 KPH I am flying at about 15%ish. On my CR+ that's probably around 10%.

Low airspeed is a leading cause of fatalities in WS BASE and it's caused many incidents in skydiving too. Flying fast is good. Speed is your friend. :)

Edited by 20kN

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(edited)

The tunnel is about ‘control’ and part of that is knowing how to fly a multitude of speeds.

The avg speed results (including wind and steep dive beforehand) on the last world cup are 240/260 kmh, in a steep steep dive. During distance rounds, the top pilots fly on avg 160/180 kmh, with the aid of a dive and flare. So 310 kmh during normal/sustained glide, seems for sure way beyond realistic in numbers.

Its very naive thinking having more control of your suit, and sense of speed is not helping in safety. Indeed, speed is your friend, so when flying base or acro or otherwise, you can fly fast. Thats part of having that control.

Much like freefly and FS you will have a small group of people thinking its no good. But there thankfully the sport is not at a standstill, and progress is skill and teaching is made everyday still with enough practical proof showing in the skies of its effectiveness..

Edited by mccordia

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(edited)
19 hours ago, mccordia said:

The tunnel is about ‘control’ and part of that is knowing how to fly a multitude of speeds.

The avg speed results (including wind and steep dive beforehand) on the last world cup are 240/260 kmh, in a steep steep dive. During distance rounds, the top pilots fly on avg 160/180 kmh, with the aid of a dive and flare. So 310 kmh during normal/sustained glide, seems for sure way beyond realistic in numbers.

Its very naive thinking having more control of your suit, and sense of speed is not helping in safety. Indeed, speed is your friend, so when flying base or acro or otherwise, you can fly fast. Thats part of having that control.

Much like freefly and FS you will have a small group of people thinking its no good. But there thankfully the sport is not at a standstill, and progress is skill and teaching is made everyday still with enough practical proof showing in the skies of its effectiveness..

I think we're talking about two different numbers here. I am talking about airspeed, aka 'total speed' as FlySight would call it. If you're talking about horizontal speed then 145 kph is perfectly fine. Typically when talking about speed in a tunnel one would speak to airspeed which is what I though you were referring to, sorry about that.

Edited by 20kN

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One of you is saying "speed is important." The other is saying, "control is important."

You are both correct. It's just that the underlying preferences are being highlighted. PF is known for precise, clean flying suits. Hence the tunnel and control focus. Sq is known for fast suits, hence the speed focus. 

For what it's worth, I've flown a ton of stuff and I'll never sell my original Havok. Pretty much everything else has been rotated through.

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The tunnel will make you a significantly better pilot in a shorter period of time. It doesn’t matter what you want to focus on. You will learn in a week what might take a year in the sky. Just like the vertical tunnel for vertical skydivers. So those who have not spent time there may see the only benefit is transitions but it couldn’t be further from the truth. Yes, they are easier to learn in the tunnel because of instant feedback, quality coaching, and ability to quickly repeat drills. But transitions and more importantly control in regards to direction and altitude gain or loss during a transition is highly challenging for many people. So lots of these videos surface. 
 

If you want to level up your abilities quickly, the tunnel is the secret. You can’t hide your capabilities or lack there of in the tunnel. You will become a better pilot. 

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5 hours ago, BryanCampau said:

 You will learn in a week what might take a year in the sky.

That's a ridiculous assertion. If that was true for you, then you were flying with some incredibly bad WS pilots. i would like to add that most of the of the top WS pilots in the western part of the world do not train in the tunnel--at least not any of the ones I have flown with (which is many of them). The absolute best of them all, the current world record holder, has never even been to the tunnel once (I asked him). Very few of guys I know have been and I've been lucky enough to fly with some of the top pilots in the sport.

SO not saying it's bad or you wont learn anything, but without question you can become a highly competent pilot in the sky and it is not at a rate of like 30x as slow. for what it's worth, I've flown with dudes that have like 10 hours in the tunnel. While they were not 'bad' they certainly were fantastic either. I've flown with many people with 0 tunnel time who are much better pilots. so to each their own. you can learn either way.

Edited by Westerly

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Of course there are pilots that have learned in the sky. That’s a no brainer. Most of us here have been flying wingsuits longer than the tunnel has been around. And there’s a lot of factors in how quick (or slow) someone picks it up. Picking the right coach is definitely a big factor. But no matter how you slice it - it will be exponentially faster in the tunnel. It’s no different then a free flyer putting in hours at the vertical tunnel. 

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(edited)
13 hours ago, Westerly said:

The absolute best of them all, the current world record holder, has never even been to the tunnel once (I asked him)

My Nana's never been there either. You want her number so you can ask her opinion? Should be just about as well-informed.

Skydiving has been through this whole skepticism phase before with vertical tunnels. Personally, I can't wait to get past that phase.

Edited by flying_phish

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As said above, the tunnel is a great learning tool and helps teach really good control and fine tuning. 

I did an hour in there last year and whatever the actual speed was, the feeling was of flying at a healthy forward speed but relatively flatter AoA compared to the much more aggressive and steeper AoA I'd prefer on a BASE jump. However the fine tuning I worked on in the tunnel I think is definitely be useful for BASE and performance flying. 

I love my Havok and can't recommend it highly enough, but I do think if you have a Funk already you're sort of doubling up on a suit class there. I get the impression the Havok is a better suit than the Funk but I have never tried the latter so can't give an opinion. ATC 2 is quite a powerful suit but I feel like you're better off waiting a bit more and going to a Strix rather than getting every single size of suit along the way and ending up with 2 or 3 that you don't need (they are expensive!). 

However, if you are still doing coach jumps to feel comfortable jumping with others I think you should stick with what you have until you are comfortable there. A bigger suit is more to worry about and you want to be pretty in control of your current suit before upsizing. 

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9 hours ago, johnmatrix said:

ATC 2 is quite a powerful suit but I feel like you're better off waiting a bit more and going to a Strix

Are you talking a Strix 1 or 2? The Strix 2 is a solid improvement over the Strix 1. The Strix 1 is similar to an ATC 1 performance wise although it has more surface area. The ATC2 will outperform a Strix 1, but a Strix 2 will outperform an ATC 2. Basically my experience with them is Strix 1 = Similar to ATC 1. Strix 2 = Similar to Freak 2. I am a Squirrel fan so I'll almost always recommend them over PF because I think they make better products, but if you went the PF route I'd agree that going to a Strix 2 after some more time in the current suit would be better than going with a Carve unless acro is his main goal.

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(edited)
4 hours ago, 20kN said:

Are you talking a Strix 1 or 2? 

I haven't jumped either so can't recommend. Based on what you've said it seems the Strix 2 is the one to get.

I just think having an intermediate suit (Funk), small-big suit (ATC) and then potentially a big suit (e.g. Strix, Freak) on top of that may be more suits than is needed here. I think it's best to get really good on one rather than have 5 that you only use every now and again.

Edited by johnmatrix

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3 hours ago, johnmatrix said:

I haven't jumped either so can't recommend. Based on what you've said it seems the Strix 2 is the one to get.

I just think having an intermediate suit (Funk), small-big suit (ATC) and then potentially a big suit (e.g. Strix, Freak) on top of that may be more suits than is needed here. I think it's best to get really good on one rather than have 5 that you only use every now and again.

Yea, the Funk 2 and ATC are in the same class size wise, just they are intended for different applications. If he was jumping something like a Swift then I think going straight to something in the Freak/ Strix 2 class is too big of a jump. But if he can really nail down the Funk then I agree that a Strix 2 or Freak2/3 would be a fine move. But the Freak 3 will have a ton more speed and power than a Funk 2 by a large margin so he would want to be pretty dialed in the Funk first. Even going from the Funk 2 to the ATC2 he will gain some speed and power as the ATC2 is more performance orientated than the Frunk. The ATC2 is actualyl a pretty solid suit and it can hang with Freaks all day as long as the Freaks dont totally try to dust them. It's basically just a de-tuned Freak in the same way that a Culugo is a de-tuned C Race.

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7 hours ago, Westerly said:

 The ATC2 is actualyl a pretty solid suit 

Yes a friend of mine jumps one and I have been very impressed with the performance he is getting out of it. But he is also built like a bird and a good freeflyer with a fair amount of normal tunnel experience too.

At the end of the day the OP is in a good position with a lot of great suits to choose from as his next toy. Main thing is that he is ready for whichever suit he upsizes to.

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13 hours ago, Heat said:

I think everyone is missing THE most important thing here: what color is your suit going to be?!

Black and Red!  I opted not to go Green as I couldn't handle that much power according to the dealer :p

 

 

Thanks everyone for their input.  The Funk I own doesn't really fit properly and I've had my reserve handle slide inside the suit twice.  The first time I chalked it up to not having the zippers done properly or just some sort of rigging fuck up.  After the second time I determined the suit didn't fit me properly and have been borrowing a friends Funk2.  

Ultimately I decided on the Carve 20.  I don't have the ability and time to go and properly figure out how to go open exits, or for that matter even the desire to go after some short starts etc.  IF I can get myself to a point where I can start thinking about doing something other than Brento and some "easier" exits in the Valley or Norway I may think about something else.  

Before any of the above happen I want to go get comfortable and have some fun.  Seems like the Carve is my best choice for now.

Thanks again.

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