1 1
kallend

We Need a Sacrifice to Mammon

Recommended Posts

13 minutes ago, kallend said:

Louisiana governor says his state has the fastest growth rate of coronavirus cases in the world

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/us/louisiana-coronavirus-fastest-growth/index.html

I guess we can thank that Louisiana pastor who held a service for 1800 in spite of all the warnings.

Even Brazilian drug traffickers have more common sense than that:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/25/brazil-rio-gangs-coronavirus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jakee said:

But it is. You may not like the way they're set up or think it's not a fair trade off, and that's fine. But you can't pretend it's not there just because you don't like it.

By your logic - prisons have the best preparedness for a pandemic, then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

By your logic - prisons have the best preparedness for a pandemic, then.

In many ways, an uncrowded prison (with good isolation between prisoners, and an infirmary) would be well prepared for a pandemic.  So would a military base.  Of course, there are downsides to living in either one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, billvon said:

In many ways, an uncrowded prison (with good isolation between prisoners, and an infirmary) would be well prepared for a pandemic.  So would a military base.  Of course, there are downsides to living in either one.

My point is that the people don't get a choice.  It's not preparing.  Its just the way it is.  No specific preparedness for a pandemic went into the formation of government, regarding the oversight of its populace.  NK has always been oppressive.  Its a by product, not a preparedness tactic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

My point is that the people don't get a choice.  It's not preparing.  Its just the way it is.  No specific preparedness for a pandemic went into the formation of government, regarding the oversight of its populace.  NK has always been oppressive.  Its a by product, not a preparedness tactic.

The statement you responded to was about SOUTH Korea.  That is not the same as North Korea.  South Korea is not at all oppressive; you'd find their cities to be a lot like American cities.  They were better prepared.  We could be, too, if that were a priority for us.  It used to be - but it no longer is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, billvon said:

The statement you responded to was about SOUTH Korea.  That is not the same as North Korea.  South Korea is not at all oppressive; you'd find their cities to be a lot like American cities.  They were better prepared.  We could be, too, if that were a priority for us.  It used to be - but it no longer is.

Profits are maximized by just-in-time deliveries of materials, parts, equipment, etc.  so as to minimize tying up your resources in inventory.  No for-profit business is going to have an inventory sufficient to meet a once in a century demand spike.

This is what Reagan and subsequent GOP administrations, with their relentless attack on government, have given us - a diminished ability of government to prepare for eventualities such as this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
3 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

By your logic - prisons have the best preparedness for a pandemic, then.

Are you insane? The chronically overcrowded prison system that packs as many people into as small a space as possible? I mean, death row and those in protective custody (the way I understand it) yeah sure, but the rest of it? Lol.

Edited by jakee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

My point is that the people don't get a choice.  It's not preparing.  Its just the way it is.  No specific preparedness for a pandemic went into the formation of government, regarding the oversight of its populace.  NK has always been oppressive.  Its a by product, not a preparedness tactic.

The people having a choice has nothing to do with a state being prepared. That's an odd non-sequitur. We're also not talking about North Korea where people are controlled all the time, frankly I have absolutely no idea how NK is getting on with Corona. We're talking about South Korea and Singapore where there is the ability to control people when needed, although the bulk of those powers aren't normally in use.

 

We're also talking about how highly co-ordinated and effective their response to the virus was. The US has been unable to do anything remotely similar because the command and control structure for pandemic response is so vague and disjointed. I.e. not prepared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, jakee said:

The US has been unable to do anything remotely similar because the command and control structure for pandemic response is so vague and disjointed.

I'm not disagreeing with this part - 

That goes to actions after preparations were made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
10 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

I'm not disagreeing with this part - 

That goes to actions after preparations were made.

No it doesn't. You are being wilfully obtuse and blinding yourself to the inherent structural problems in your chain of command that made it impossible to have a co-ordinated and effective response even once it had been ordered from the White House. Basically, the same as the people who failed to make those preparations even when the failings were known well in advance.

 

Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded

 

The US government was not prepared, and knew they were not prepared, to respond quickly and effectively to a pandemic.

Edited by jakee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jakee said:

No it doesn't. You are being wilfully obtuse and blinding yourself to the inherent structural problems in your chain of command that made it impossible to have co-ordinated and effective response even once it had been ordered from the White House. Basically, the same as the people who failed to make those reparations even when the failings were known well in advance.

 

Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded

 

The US government was not prepared, and knew they were not prepared, to respond quickly and effectively to a pandemic.

That is not what the study that Johns Hopkins put together claims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, turtlespeed said:

That is not what the study that Johns Hopkins put together claims.

There is no way you read the article above in the time it took you to respond to my post. Again, wilfully blind and obtuse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, jakee said:

There is no way you read the article above in the time it took you to respond to my post. Again, wilfully blind and obtuse.

Cant get to it.  

It is an article from the NYT - 

Show me one from Johns Hopkins that disagrees with its own findings.

you are trying to change the argument to fit your facts.

 

Its simple.  Preparation happens before.  Action happens after.

 

JH stated we were the best prepared.  I don't necessarily believe it, based on actions taken after the fact.

There are a million factors to consider to prove them wrong.

I think you are arguing with me just to argue, as you say I am with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Cant get to it.  

It is an article from the NYT - 

Show me one from Johns Hopkins that disagrees with its own findings.

Why does a study need to come from Johns Hopkins to be valid? Ultimately, I'm more inclined to trust the results of the government's own simulations since in many cases they closely resemble what has actually happened in reality, while some of the Johns Hopkins results, specifically being No 1 in early detection and reporting, rapid response and mitigation do not. Unless you take the view that all the systems were there and it was purely and only the Trump administration that fucked everything up, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

Some key passages from the NYT report: 

"The simulation’s sobering results — contained in a draft report dated October 2019 that has not previously been reported — drove home just how underfunded, underprepared and uncoordinated the federal government would be for a life-or-death battle with a virus for which no treatment existed.

The draft report, marked “not to be disclosed,” laid out in stark detail repeated cases of “confusion” in the exercise. Federal agencies jockeyed over who was in charge. State officials and hospitals struggled to figure out what kind of equipment was stockpiled or available. Cities and states went their own ways on school closings." Does that sound familiar to you? It does to me.

 

It also points out largely unaddressed deficiencies that were identified after the Ebola scare. "The weaknesses Mr. Kirchhoff identified were early warning signals of what has unfolded in the past three months. His report concluded that the United States assumed more ability on the part of the World Health Organization than the agency actually had.

The United States had its own issues. There was no airplane in the U.S. fleet capable of evacuating an American doctor who was infected while treating patients in Liberia. The Pentagon was largely unprepared for the intervention that Mr. Obama ordered. While the United States rapidly developed a way to screen air passengers coming into the country — borrowing from intelligence tools developed after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to track possible terrorists — Mr. Kirchhoff found deficiencies in even measuring how fast the virus was spreading." Again, sounds familiar.

 

Now maybe try this link, it's the actual report on the pandemic excercise from the government. Selected conclusions which, again, sound rather familiar.

 

"Existing statutory authorities tasking HHS to lead the federal government's response to an influenza pandemic are insufficient and often in conflict with each other.

Currently, there are insufficient funding sources designated for the federal government to use in response to a severe influenza pandemic.

The Biological IncidentAnnex to the Response and Recovery Federal Interagency Operational Plans (January 2017) and the Pandemic Crisis Action Plan Version 2 ( January 2018 ) do not outline the organizational structure of the federal government when HHS is designated as the lead federal agency.

Exercise participants lacked clarity on federal interagency partners' roles and responsibilities during an influenza pandemic response.

Confusion regarding the purpose of and target audience for national conference calls hampered coordination among state and federal response partners.

HHS and DHS/ FEMA' s use of disparate information management systems hampered their ability to establish andmaintain a national common operating picture.

HHS' regional staff lack clear guidance on the distribution of federal information management products to state and local partners.

The current medical countermeasure supply chain and production capacity cannot meet the demands imposed by nations during a global influenza pandemic.

States experienced multiple challenges requesting resources from the federal government due to a lack of standardized, well-understood, and properly executed resource request processes."

 

All of the above speaks to being prepared. It's not just Trump making or delaying decisions to fight the virus, it's also the fundamental pre-existing ability to implement those decisions and effectively fight it in the way that countries like Singapore and South Korea have.

 

Quote

I think you are arguing with me just to argue, as you say I am with you.

I'll give you a chance to reconsider that statement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

1 1