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sfzombie13

tracking up or down jump run

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i saw a discussion on reddit about tracking at the end of a jump.  i have always heard that you don't track up or down jump run to avoid other groups.  another jumper said that was an old timer attitude and that doesn't matter, that separation is gotten by delaying between groups.  i am pretty new as a licensed jumper but have been jumping for decades, so that part is true.  i also normally jump at a 182 dz, so it usually isn't an issue.  i am pretty sure that is what i have been told at start in cincy, but cannot recall what they said at skydance in yolo county.  should i not worry about it or is it something that i should just ignore and continue to avoid tracking up or down jump run?  i don't want to make this any more dangerous than it already is.  it is a great topic for safety day too, i just want to see what the consensus here is.

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(edited)

Why are you supposed to track away from the center of your group? 
A: To avoid canopy collissions with members of your group. 

How do you account for separation between groups / exits?
A: To allow enough time between exits. 

Bigger groups = bigger chance of tracking away on jumprun at the end of the jump. So you need more time between (or after) group exits than solo exits. If you're not tracking away because you're on jumprun you risk a canopy collision with someone for your group. I'm sure you understand that's not the right solution.

 

 

Edited by wsdm

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if i understood it, i wouldn't have asked the question.  i THOUGHT i understood it to be "no tracking up or down jump run" but cannot find that spelled out anywhere.  perhaps they were all talking about tracking jumps, but it makes no sense to me to track towards another group of jumpers.  most of the time it doesn't matter, since there are four of us jumping.  i do travel sometimes and i want to make sure that i know what to do, and not to do, but more importantly i want to know why.  i found this article and it is pretty good info, but if you have any other reference i would love to see it.  for example, it mentions that one group which is heavily loaded on one side could end up a half a mile on the other side of the next group just by drifting.

 

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Look. If you have to track up / down jumprun to get away from your group members in order to avoid a possible canopy colission. You must right? If during break-off, two people track away perpendicular to jumprun, are the other jumpers supposed to simply open and fly into eachother because they're not supposed to track up/down jumprun?  It doesn't make sense, does it? In a 4 way at least 2 jumpers would be tracking up/down jumprun to at least some extent... It's impossible not to.


Naturally, You're eating up some of the margin between the other group, but that margin should be accounted for by the time between exits! That is the reason you leave more time between and after groups, than after solo's. Who would cover more ground in 5 seconds? Your plane or you whilst tracking? 

Hope you understand the logic behind it. To give you an example: I'm sure you understand that if you start your break-off at 6000 feet, it would be very smart to inform the next group of this plan and ask for more exit separation. 


Same way, if you notice you are tracking up/down jumprun and you can visually see you're far enough from your group members. You can and should open your parachute right? 

 

 

 

 

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There's not a simple answer.

For tracking and angle jumps, it's an absolute. No tracking up or down jumprun (possible exceptions for first or last group out). Some DZs require an experienced jumper (approved by the S&TA) to lead those groups. 

I've personally had a 'tracking' pair open up directly underneath me. I was on an organized jump at a bigger DZ. The pair was out first. The organizer for my group repeatedly warned them about tracking in a safe direction. Apparently their plan was to track perpendicular to jumprun for a time, then, when safely offset, turn up jumprun. Apparently they overestimated their tracking ability because they didn't go very far off of jumprun and only went up far enough to reach the next group (us). Yes, they got a stern 'talking to'. 

 

For groups of freefallers, it can get complicated. It's fairly easy for a two way to split up and each go perpendicular, but any bigger than four and it's not realistic. 
Throw in the fact that bigger groups (8 and more) usually break off higher to give more time to track and things can get 'interesting'. 
I've seen an 8 way and a 4 way each track apart and end up with people scary close to each other. The  ones from the 8 way tracked up, the one from the 4 way tracked down. And the three of them (in this particular case, it was 3) ended up actually going past each other. Fortunately, nothing bad happened. 
But all 'safety procedures and rules' had been adhered to. The standard separation, based on GPS ground speed was followed.
The decision was made to put in more separation after the 8 way left. The smaller groups that were also jumping (4 and smaller, plus the tandems) didn't have any conflicts among themselves, it was the 8 way that was breaking off higher, plus having experienced jumpers who could track really well that was the issue. 
It was fixed after the first jump and was fine the rest of the day. 

This is something that different DZs handle differently. It should be covered in a proper DZ brief. If you don't know or it wasn't covered, make sure you find out. 

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(edited)

First off, when you go to a new dz, talk to the instructors there about their protocols so that you'll be on their page.

There is validity in everything that's been said, but here's another factor that hasn't been mentioned. We tell students doing their early solos to track perpendicular to jumprun in part because they may be spending a fair part of their jump practicing their track, and may cover some significant distance. But on a breakoff from a group jump, it's 180 from the centerpoint so that you'll get separation from the other jumpers. In that scenario, the tracking would be shorter and cover less distance.

Edited by dudeman17

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If you are on a moving group (angle or tracking) then absolutely, no tracking up or down flightline for the main part of the jump.

If you do a solo or 2way, again, absolutely, do not track away along the flightline.

Any bigger than that, your priority is to turn 180 from the center of the formation, and track away. Not going up and down flightline becomes almost impossible as 1 person will essentially be along the flightline.  This is why having enough separation between groups is critical.

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it seems that it was a good question, as there isn't really a consensus.  the closest i can get is that separation between groups takes care of it.  except when it doesn't.  for example, given two 4 way groups that need a 10 second gap, they have a full 10 seconds between them but are drifting towards one another, not much, but some.  i have read a lot about separation and it isn't that unlikely to have drifting like this. 

the reason i am asking as i stated is the discussion on reddit.  the jumper said that he found himself over another group at pull time, then asked what he could do to prevent it, and said that tracking to one side was forbidden due to being over the ocean.  since i don't have a lot of experience at larger dropzones, i figured i would ask and see what the accepted procedures for dealing with it are.  i am surprised to find that the only consensus is having enough separation.  i know it's important but there are too many stories about folks not knowing how to do it properly. 

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(edited)
4 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

it seems that it was a good question, as there isn't really a consensus.  the closest i can get is that separation between groups takes care of it.  except when it doesn't. 

The take away from this is: the how and why when it doesn't...

Ground speed is the primary tool used to determine separation, HOWEVER, the holding area prior to boarding is where the IMPORTANT part takes place: Planning each and every load, because everyone is different. YOU must be cognizant of what the other groups around YOU are doing... THIS matters just as much as the actual separation.     

Edited by timski
wrong word usage!

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On 3/9/2020 at 4:00 PM, dudeman17 said:

First off, when you go to a new dz, talk to the instructors there about their protocols so that you'll be on their page.

There is validity in everything that's been said, but here's another factor that hasn't been mentioned. We tell students doing their early solos to track perpendicular to jumprun in part because they may be spending a fair part of their jump practicing their track, and may cover some significant distance. But on a breakoff from a group jump, it's 180 from the centerpoint so that you'll get separation from the other jumpers. In that scenario, the tracking would be shorter and cover less distance.

i am going to use this as an answer to my question originally, as it makes sense that i would still be using the limited information i had as a student just last year.  now that it makes sense to me, i can accept that there is no rule for tracking on jumprun at breakoff.  it just did not make sense to me that i had been given contradictory information, and now i know better.  thanx to all for the explanations.

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15 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

folks not knowing how to do it properly. 

Well.. You hit the nail on the head there! In my country you're allowed to exit 'on your own' after you hit A license but nowhere in the theory you need to learn is anything about exit order, exit time, ground speed of aircraft etc.etc. 
Glad you become somewhat wiser in this thread, definitely a good question! 

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(edited)
On 3/9/2020 at 8:29 AM, sfzombie13 said:

  another jumper said that was an old timer attitude and that doesn't matter, that separation is gotten by delaying between groups.  

I started out by calling this other jumper an idiot, and they probably are, but the question is what do you mean about tracking up jump run, and what did they think you meant.

It sounds like they were referring, not to break-off, when you track enough to get minimum separation from the jumpers on your group, and instead literally tracking up jump run.

If that is what they meant then they should know that a premature canopy opening, or something else out of the ordinary like a canopy malfunction on opening will eat up that vertical separation from group delay in a nano second. Combine that with your movement relative to the other groups because of tracking, and you can get yourself a cozy coffin, or a rad wheelchair.

If they mean tracking at the end of a jump, well yes, you track relative to your group center, and you should track just long enough to get the separation. IF you left proper delay between groups, and the group order was correct, then that type of tracking for separation shouldn't be an issue and your focus should be on a heading that gets you the best separation from your group.

Edited by DougH
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they hadn't left enough separation or used it up, the jumper stated that they had a 12 second count, but that it could have been "skydiver seconds" and they didn't know the ground speed or discuss anything about who was doing what on the jump.  he wanted to know if anything else could have been done besides groups separation to avoid canopies underneath him at pull time.  the reddit thread is here.  i initially thought it was sop to not track on jump run, then found out that was most likely an artifact from student status of 22 years.  i am always going to make it a point to not track on jump run if possible, and to practice my tracking until i get really good at it.  glad to have seen the thread and i learned a lot from the discussion.

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1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said:

i initially thought it was sop to not track on jump run

you need to say "up" jump run and not "on" jump run. in discussions like this being precise helps. :)

i read the reddit thread.  i'll echo what remster said, in a breakoff, your #1 job is to get separation from your group-mates, and often that means a few people are tracking up and down jump run.  group exit intervals should be designed to take the fact that some people from both groups will be tracking up and down jump run into account.

now once you are in the situation the reddit poster described, you are in some trouble, and what you do is very situation dependent. pull early, alter your track direction, stop tracking and wait, lots of options and i can't give any advice over what to do but be aware of where everyone is and do what is best to keep away from them all. 

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