Healthcare comparison - a case study

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Jesus Joe.  

Why are you, so often, this condescending, and hateful?

Turtle,

On reflection I think you are right to make the observation. I'll work on it.

[gowlerk 1,903]

3 hours ago, yobnoc said:

I wouldn't be opposed to a universal health care initiative that levies additional fees on people who are smokers, obese, or test positive for drugs to make sure that they are paying for their choices.  That said, I think that they should have completely subsidized (I won't say free because I know that triggers you) access to smoking cessation programs, gyms, and rehabilitation centers.  

 

It can never work with governments deciding who is worthy and who is not. There will always be people who fail to meet your standard but are still someone’s loved one.

[gowlerk 1,903]

3 hours ago, yobnoc said:

Edited March 8, 2020 by gowlerk
Double post

[billvon 2,380]

On 3/6/2020 at 4:00 PM, JoeWeber said:

Aww, you butt sore again? There was no attribution.

"https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2018/01/23/about-those-soaring-pharma-profits/#11f7b6d3f9db"

Looks like Forbes to me.

[billvon 2,380]

3 hours ago, yobnoc said:

I wouldn't be opposed to a universal health care initiative that levies additional fees on people who are smokers, obese, or test positive for drugs to make sure that they are paying for their choices. 

We can do that the same way we do it now - with taxes on those things.  Quantify the increase in healthcare costs that each bottle of vodka (or beer) causes, and set the tax at that amount - and then that money goes to the healthcare system.

[ryoder 1,381]

3 hours ago, yobnoc said:

I wouldn't be opposed to a universal health care initiative that levies additional fees on people who are smokers, obese, or test positive for drugs to make sure that they are paying for their choices.  That said, I think that they should have completely subsidized (I won't say free because I know that triggers you) access to smoking cessation programs, gyms, and rehabilitation centers.  

Then how do you feel about surcharges for people who engage in hazardous hobbies?

.e.g. https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-deadliest-hobbies.php

[Coreece 189]

34 minutes ago, ryoder said:

4 hours ago, yobnoc said:

I wouldn't be opposed to a universal health care initiative that levies additional fees on people who are smokers, obese, or test positive for drugs to make sure that they are paying for their choices.  That said, I think that they should have completely subsidized (I won't say free because I know that triggers you) access to smoking cessation programs, gyms, and rehabilitation centers.  

Then how do you feel about surcharges for people who engage in hazardous hobbies?

Would it hurt to tax those things like Billvon noted above wrt to alcohol/drugs?

We could probably take a portion of speeding tickets and other fines for traffic violations/misdemeanors/risky driving, etc.

We could also have a couch potato tax on cable TV and junk food.

[turtlespeed 212]

13 minutes ago, Coreece said:

We could also have a couch potato tax on cable TV and junk food.

Big brother could let you know how many hours you watched and sat, and charge you accordingly.

You get tax credit for video workouts - they will have to verify you by facial recognition.

But there will NOT be any invasion of privacy.

Edited March 8, 2020 by turtlespeed
comma

[Coreece 189]

38 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

51 minutes ago, Coreece said:

We could also have a couch potato tax on cable TV and junk food.

Big brother could let you know how many hours you watched and sat, and charge you accordingly.

You get tax credit for video workouts - they will have to verify you by facial recognition.

I was thinking they could just add a fee to all the other obscure charges.  My bill simple calls it "other charges."

 

38 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

But there will NOT be any invasion of privacy.

Cable companies know exactly what you watch and when you watched it.  If you don't use a VPN, they also know everywhere you've been online.  It's weird how we give companies/apps all this access to our personal lives and people act like it's no big deal, but if uncle sam takes a peek, we'd all flip out.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Coreece

[yobnoc 142]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

Then how do you feel about surcharges for people who engage in hazardous hobbies?

.e.g. https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-deadliest-hobbies.php

My life insurance through work specifically states that it does not cover parachuting fatalities.  As such, because I have two littles, I had to obtain special life insurance that applies toward skydiving.  It costs me roughly $4 extra per annum per $1000 of coverage.  So I guess what I'm trying to say is: that's already a thing.

Edit: in addition, if I were to break an ankle or femur or otherwise have a non-life-threatening injury, I'd simply lie about the cause.  Self preservation and all that.

Edited March 8, 2020 by yobnoc

[turtlespeed 212]

46 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

My life insurance through work specifically states that it does not cover parachuting fatalities.  As such, because I have two littles, I had to obtain special life insurance that applies toward skydiving.  It costs me roughly $4 extra per annum per $1000 of coverage.  So I guess what I'm trying to say is: that's already a thing.

Edit: in addition, if I were to break an ankle or femur or otherwise have a non-life-threatening injury, I'd simply lie about the cause.  Self preservation and all that.

Lying is Always good!!! - Trump does it, so it's OK.

[jakee 1,254]

6 hours ago, yobnoc said:

Edit: in addition, if I were to break an ankle or femur or otherwise have a non-life-threatening injury, I'd simply lie about the cause.  Self preservation and all that.

A femur? That's pretty life threatening. What are you going to do, get them to not send an ambulance to the DZ? 

[Phil1111 908]

3 hours ago, jakee said:

A femur? That's pretty life threatening. What are you going to do, get them to not send an ambulance to the DZ? 

I've bruised my heel before hang gliding. I've broken a leg playing football. The heel injury was far more painful. Yeah if the risk of a jail cell for fraud didn't worry you. You could take off the jumpsuit, leave the DZ and tell the attending physician that you had a hard fall at home. An ordinary broken bone is not very life threatening IMO.

A multi-compound broken mess of bone protruding from the skin. Might put the insurance issue aside.

[BIGUN 1,049]

16 hours ago, yobnoc said:

I wouldn't be opposed to a universal health care initiative that levies additional fees on people who are smokers, obese, or test positive for drugs to make sure that they are paying for their choices.  That said, I think that they should have completely subsidized (I won't say free because I know that triggers you) access to smoking cessation programs, gyms, and rehabilitation centers.  

I think the stereotype of the "welfare queen" is so ingrained in our society now that it makes it really hard to understand the plight of those in poverty.  This is a really good video of a West Virginia woman addressing Congress about poverty.

I'm not sure how we segued into a conversation on poverty. I don't give Ms. Hutchison much credibility. She lost me at, "I've had to go hungry and miss a meal, so my kids can have seconds."  And, to your point - how does one levy additional fees on the poor who are smokers, etc. I like Bill's thoughts about Sin taxes. 

Back to my point. If memory serves - you're a project manager. Have you ever done a multi-million dollar project without having a project plan, project budget, used managerial accounting techniques to forecast it's financial success, Gantt Charts, PERT diagrams, operations plans etc. etc. That's all I'm asking for is a type of project plan that's a transition plan. I can get behind something that is pragmatic, but what I won't get behind is a visionary statement and a cheerleading team with no substance..        

[gowlerk 1,903]

45 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I'm not sure how we segued into a conversation on poverty. I don't give Ms. Hutchison much credibility. She lost me at, "I've had to go hungry and miss a meal, so my kids can have seconds."  And, to your point - how does one levy additional fees on the poor who are smokers, etc. I like Bill's thoughts about Sin taxes. 

Back to my point. If memory serves - you're a project manager. Have you ever done a multi-million dollar project without having a project plan, project budget, used managerial accounting techniques to forecast it's financial success, Gantt Charts, PERT diagrams, operations plans etc. etc. That's all I'm asking for is a type of project plan that's a transition plan. I can get behind something that is pragmatic, but what I won't get behind is a visionary statement and a cheerleading team with no substance..        

Politics is the art of the possible. A detailed plan would lay out just who will be feeling the pain and when they will feel it. This will result in more effective lobbying and money spent to stop it. 
 

Sometimes it is necessary to keep things a little vague.

[BIGUN 1,049]

3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Politics is the art of the possible. A detailed plan would lay out just who will be feeling the pain and when they will feel it. This will result in more effective lobbying and money spent to stop it. 
 

Sometimes it is necessary to keep things a little vague.

I am not even buying that. Too many on here have said it's like,"Highways, FAA, etc." It is a science. And, when you're talking about using taxpayer dollars - most of the middle & upper class are smart enough to see and endorse something logical. Keeping things vague is not in the interest of transparency. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I am not even buying that. Too many on here have said it's like,"Highways, FAA, etc." It is a science. And, when you're talking about using taxpayer dollars - most of the middle & upper class are smart enough to see and endorse something logical. Keeping things vague is not in the interest of transparency. 

The thing is that leadership and vision usually don't start with a PowerPoint presentation. It starts with someone saying: "this is whats going to happen and you people figure out how we're going to do it." So yes, let's have a shout out to the cubicle people tasked with all of that, but that's not where it starts.

Of course, sometimes you get a moon landing and sometimes you get a 737Max so once the decision to do it is made you just gotta cross your fingers and hope the detail people can pull it off.

[Phil1111 908]

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

The thing is that leadership and vision usually don't start with a PowerPoint presentation. It starts with someone saying: "this is whats going to happen and you people figure out how we're going to do it." So yes, let's have a shout out to the cubicle people tasked with all of that, but that's not where it starts.

Of course, sometimes you get a moon landing and sometimes you get a 737Max so once the decision to do it is made you just gotta cross your fingers and hope the detail people can pull it off.

Yes, this is how Taiwan did it:

Is Canada the Right Model for a Better U.S. Health Care System? 

A caution has to be used in reference to this(above) story because its from the Wharton School of Economics, But in its defense." It’s rare for a professor to disparage the intelligence of a student, but according to attorney Frank DiPrima, who was close friends with professor William T. Kelley for 47 years, the prof made an exception for Donald Trump, at least in private. “He must have told me that 100 times over the course of 30 years,” ...“I remember the inflection of his voice when he said it: ‘Donald Trump was the dumbest goddamn student I ever had!’”

So perhaps a mulligan is warranted.

[jakee 1,254]

8 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

I've bruised my heel before hang gliding. I've broken a leg playing football. The heel injury was far more painful. Yeah if the risk of a jail cell for fraud didn't worry you. You could take off the jumpsuit, leave the DZ and tell the attending physician that you had a hard fall at home. An ordinary broken bone is not very life threatening IMO.

A multi-compound broken mess of bone protruding from the skin. Might put the insurance issue aside.

A broken femur is not an ordinary broken bone. You could bleed to death in minutes from a broken femur with nothing having ever broken the skin. Heck, just the force of the impact necessary makes it extremely unlikely that the rest of you will be in any condition to leave the DZ without being carried off under medical care.

[ryoder 1,381]

For those who think a broken femur is not a big deal; Here is a page from the textbook I used when I got my EMT certification a few years ago.

Edited March 8, 2020 by ryoder

[BIGUN 1,049]

17 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

so once the decision to do it is made you just gotta cross your fingers and hope the detail people can pull it off.

Uh huh. I'm sure that's how you run your business. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

35 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Uh huh. I'm sure that's how you run your business. 

I'm not NASA or Boeing but I am as hands off as possible at my scale. And, luckily for me, I've always had really good people who don't mind keeping me in the right lane when needed.

Something as relatively simple, on a societal scale, as adequate nutrition for school children is a massive undertaking to solve. No one comes out of the gate with a fleshed out plan or even a half assed plan. Too many variables are involved, too much give and take will happen along the way. But that won't stop someone from starting the process by observing that we just might be paying huge as a society for all of those poor development issues anyway so let's just accept that truth and do the right thing and put food in the mouths of blameless kids see how that works. Then the planning begins.
 

[wmw999 2,116]

You have to start with a flexible plan, and people with information and insight to help you evaluate and mold the plan. No plan is perfect when it starts. 

Wendy P. 

[SkyDekker 1,121]

On 3/7/2020 at 2:41 AM, kallend said:

"You just want free ...." is repeatedly lobbed at those who want state support of education or healthcare.  Why don't these same people whine about the "free" police service, fire service, air traffic control, highway maintenance, army, navy, air force, border protection, coast guard, Trump Wall, etc. that they benefit from?

Cause most of them worked for one of those socialist organizations or have been conditioned to worship them.

[kallend 1,620]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Uh huh. I'm sure that's how you run your business. 

Worked for Steve Jobs.  He wasn't a techie geek - he let others implement his ideas, from Woz onwards.