covid-19

[gowlerk 1,911]

10 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Sarah Palin, covid vaccination, "Over my dead body".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/20/sarah-palin-anti-vax-tpusa-tconference/

I know it's wrong to be smug about this. I'm trying not to.

 

But Palin’s talk of dead bodies is on point. By discouraging vaccination, she and Tucker Carlson and the rest of the anti-science right are quite literally getting people killed. Studies show that those living in the most pro-Trump counties in the United States are dying from covid-19 at a rate more than five times higher than in the most anti-Trump counties.

 

[ryoder 1,384]

12 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Sarah Palin, covid vaccination, "Over my dead body".

Looking forward to her Herman Cain Award.

[Phil1111 910]

45 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

... Palin’s talk of dead bodies is on point. By discouraging vaccination, she and Tucker Carlson and the rest of the anti-science right are quite literally getting their own base killed.

There must be a medical term for people that want to kill off their own tribes.

Sarah Palin says she has Covid and urges people to wear masks

“I strongly encourage everyone to use common sense to avoid spreading this and every other virus out there,” Palin said, in urging vigilance but not fear.

She said she also advised “reprioritizing some personal time and resources to ensure as healthy a lifestyle as you can create so when viruses do hit, you have at least some armor to fight it”.

Now I remember its called republicanism. Perhaps President Biden should give out Glocks, a 26 of bourbon and carry permits for all republicans this Christmas.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Phil1111

[ryoder 1,384]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

There must be a medical term for people that want to kill off their own tribes.

Sarah Palin says she has Covid and urges people to wear masks

“I strongly encourage everyone to use common sense to avoid spreading this and every other virus out there,” Palin said, in urging vigilance but not fear.

She said she also advised “reprioritizing some personal time and resources to ensure as healthy a lifestyle as you can create so when viruses do hit, you have at least some armor to fight it”.

So she had COVID-19 months ago and urged people to do the right thing, but now months later she has reversed her position. You realize what this means??? Apparently, a lingering effect of having COVID-19 is degenerative brain disease!!!

[DougH 270]

8 hours ago, ryoder said:

So she had COVID-19 months ago and urged people to do the right thing, but now months later she has reversed her position. You realize what this means??? Apparently, a lingering effect of having COVID-19 is degenerative brain disease!!!

They are politicians, their clinical diagnosis of sociopathy long predated any viral infection. They did the math, and they realized that a large percentage of their base is under educated, suspicious, and angry. Maybe they care on some level that they are killing constituents, probably not, but that is a loss of a relatively small amount of votes, compared to the loss of the greater base if they don't pander to the stupidity. 

[ryoder 1,384]

Sounds too good to be true:

US Army Creates Single Vaccine Against All COVID & SARS Variants, Researchers Say

[Stumpy 256]

17 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Sounds too good to be true:

US Army Creates Single Vaccine Against All COVID & SARS Variants, Researchers Say

Yeah agreed - I'd love to know how that works. Generally the thing about evolution/ natural selection is that the phenotype that thrives is the mutation that beats whatever is in place.
From what I can read from that article is that this gives the ability to vaccinate, in one go, against up to 24 possible variants, or variant "families". Without going into the research (and really, I should still be working) - doesn't this just mean that its the 25th variant that will get us next?

[DougH 270]

That would be awesome, but it doesn't sound like they have moved far enough along to test effectiveness.

Maybe I need to reread the protocols for the accelerated testing for vaccines, but it sort of seems like funny reporting going on here.

Phase 1 of human trials, which tested the vaccine against Omicron and the other variants, wrapped up this month, again with positive results that are undergoing final review, Dr. Kayvon Modjarrad, director of Walter Reed’s infectious diseases branch, said in an exclusive interview with Defense One. The new vaccine will still need to undergo phase 2 and phase 3 trials.

In general phase 1 trials are focused on safety of a drug, not effectiveness. Phase one is normally escalating dose based to prove that there aren't any unacceptable safety risks. 

Phase 2 is safety and efficacy.

It isn't until phase 3 that you really get down to proving effectiveness, risk reduction, etc. 

But maybe they designed the study that they had enough participants in phase one to actually get solid statistical results.

Edited December 22, 2021 by DougH

[gowlerk 1,911]

32 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Sounds too good to be true:

US Army Creates Single Vaccine Against All COVID & SARS Variants, Researchers Say

The reason it sounds too good to be true is that the headline is completely  debunked within the article itself. 

[ryoder 1,384]

The Lincoln Project rubs it in:

 

[winsor 186]

These data:

https://phmpt.org/pfizers-documents/

appear to check out.  "5.3.6 postmarketing experience.pdf" is the document I cited previously.

I'm 'fully vaccinated' (for all the good it does against Omicron) with Pfizer, but you pays your money and  you takes your chances.

Again, feel free to attack the source rather than the content.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

 

 

[Coreece 190]

3 hours ago, winsor said:

These data:

https://phmpt.org/pfizers-documents/

appear to check out.  "5.3.6 postmarketing experience.pdf" is the document I cited previously.

I'm 'fully vaccinated' (for all the good it does against Omicron) with Pfizer, but you pays your money and  you takes your chances.

Again, feel free to attack the source rather than the content.

 

Well that's the problem.  People here are claiming that the source faked the content, tho they provided nothing to substantiate that claim.

Phmpt says they are suing the FDA for not releasing documents per the FOIA and that they'll post any documents as they receive them.

So is that what's really going on here, or not?

That kind of needs to be established first if this ever has a chance moving forward.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Coreece

[kallend 1,623]

6 hours ago, winsor said:

 

 feel free to attack the source rather than the content.

 

 

 

 

Even Trump tells the truth occasionally.  However, even if he claimed the Sun rose in the east this morning I'd be inclined to check.

[ryoder 1,384]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

Even Trump tells the truth occasionally.  However, even if he claimed the Sun rose in the east this morning I'd be inclined to check.

Amazingly, Trump told mostly the truth in this interview snippet. 

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

5 hours ago, ryoder said:

Amazingly, Trump told mostly the truth in this interview snippet. 

 

And his idiot followers booed him when he told them to get vaxed.

That's why they're dying by the thousands.

[billeisele 122]

Moderator warning - the below article is falsely attributed to Time Magazine.  It is actually from Epoch Times, a far right religious publication linked to the Falun Gong.  Reader beware.

Interesting. Perhaps it's time to put prior infection on the same footing as the shot. 

 

If You’ve Had COVID You’re Likely Protected for Life

TIMEDecember 21, 2021

If you’ve had COVID-19, even a mild case, major congratulations to you as you’ve more than likely got long-term immunity, according to a team of researchers from Washington University School of Medicine. In fact, you’re likely to be immune for life, as is the case with recovery from many infectious agents — once you’ve had the disease and recovered, you’re immune, most likely for life.

The evidence is strong and promising, and should be welcome and comforting news to a public that has spent the last year, 2020, in a panic over SARS-CoV-2.

Increasingly evidence is showing that long-lasting immunity exists.

Initial Reports That COVID Immunity Was Fleeting Were Flawed

Seasonal coronaviruses, some of which cause common colds, yield only short-lived protective immunity, with reinfections occurring six to 12 months after the previous infection. Early data on SARS-CoV-2 also found that antibody titers declined rapidly in the first months after recovery from COVID-19, leading some to speculate that protective immunity against SARS-CoV-2 may also be short-lived.

Senior author of the study, Ali Ellebedy, Ph.D., an associate professor of pathology and immunology at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, pointed out that this assumption is flawed, stating in a news release:

              “Last fall, there were reports that antibodies waned quickly after infection with the virus that             causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived. But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau.”

The researchers found a biphasic pattern of antibody concentrations against SARS-CoV-2, in which high antibody concentrations were found in the acute immune response that occurred at the time of initial infection.

The antibodies declined in the first months after infection, as should be expected, then leveled off to about 10% to 20% of the maximum concentration detected. In a commentary on the study, Andreas Radbruch and Hyun-Dong Chang of the German Rheumatism Research Centre Berlin explained:

“This is consistent with the expectation that 10–20% of the plasma cells in an acute immune reaction become memory plasma cells, and is a clear indication of a shift from antibody production by short-lived plasma cells to antibody production by memory plasma cells. This is not unexpected, given that immune memory to many viruses and vaccines is stable over decades, if not for a lifetime.”

When a new infection occurs, cells called plasmablasts provide antibodies, but when the virus is cleared, longer lasting memory B cells move in to monitor blood for signs of reinfection.

Bone marrow plasma cells (BMPCs) also exist in bones, acting as “persistent and essential sources of protective antibodies.” According to Ellebedy, “A plasma cell is our life history, in terms of the pathogens we’ve been exposed to,” and it’s in these long-lived BMPCs were immunity to SARS-CoV-2 resides.

Long-Term Immunity Likely After COVID-19 Infection

For the study, blood samples were collected from 77 people who had recovered from COVID-19, about one month after the onset of symptoms; most had experienced mild cases. Additional blood samples were collected three more times at three-month intervals to track antibody production; memory B cells and bone marrow were also collected from some of the participants.

Levels of anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike protein (S) antibodies declined rapidly in the first four months after infection, then slowed over the next seven months. The most exciting part of the research is that, at both seven months and 11 months after infection, most of the participants had BMPCs that secreted antibodies specific for the spike protein encoded by SARS-CoV-2.

The BMPCs were found in amounts similar to those found in people who had been vaccinated against tetanus or diphtheria, which are considered to provide long-lasting immunity.

“Overall, our data provide strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 infection in humans robustly establishes the two arms of humoral immune memory: long-lived BMPCs and memory B cells,” the researchers noted. This is perhaps the best available evidence of long-lasting immunity, Radbruch and Chang explained, because this immunological memory is a distinct part of the immune system that’s essential to long-term protection, beyond the initial immune response to the virus:

“In the memory phase of an immune response, B and T cells that are specific for a virus are maintained in a state of dormancy, but are poised to spring into action if they encounter the virus again or a vaccine that represents it. These memory B and T cells arise from cells activated in the initial immune reaction.

The cells undergo changes to their chromosomal DNA, termed epigenetic modifications, that enable them to react rapidly to subsequent signs of infection and drive responses geared to eliminating the disease-causing agent.

B cells have a dual role in immunity: they produce antibodies that can recognize viral proteins, and they can present parts of these proteins to specific T cells or develop into plasma cells that secrete antibodies in large quantities.

About 25 years ago, it became evident that plasma cells can become memory cells themselves, and can secrete antibodies for long-lasting protection. Memory plasma cells can be maintained for decades, if not a lifetime, in the bone marrow.”

In addition, in 2020 it was reported that people who had recovered from SARS-CoV — a virus that is genetically closely related to SARS-CoV-2 and belongs to the same viral species — maintained significant levels of neutralizing antibodies at least 17 years after initial infection. This also suggests that long-term immunity against SARS-CoV-2 should be expected. Ellebedy even said the protection is likely to continue “indefinitely”:

“These [BMPC] cells are not dividing. They are quiescent, just sitting in the bone marrow and secreting antibodies. They have been doing that ever since the infection resolved, and they will continue doing that indefinitely.”

References

• Nature May 24, 2021
• NewsWise May 24, 2021
• Nature June 14, 2021
• Nature. 1997 Jul 10;388(6638):133-4. doi: 10.1038/40540
• Nature May 26, 2021
• Adv Immunol. 2002;80:115-81. doi: 10.1016/s0065-2776(02)80014-1
• Nature. 1997 Jul 10;388(6638):133-4. doi: 10.1038/40540
• European Journal of Immunology May 19, 2021
• Emerg Microbes Infect. 2020; 9(1): 900–902

[lippy 771]

1 minute ago, billeisele said:

Interesting. Perhaps it's time to put prior infection on the same footing as the shot. 

 

If You’ve Had COVID You’re Likely Protected for Life

TIMEDecember 21, 2021

If you’ve had COVID-19, even a mild case, major congratulations to you as you’ve more than likely got long-term immunity, according to a team of researchers from Washington University School of Medicine. In fact, you’re likely to be immune for life, as is the case with recovery from many infectious agents — once you’ve had the disease and recovered, you’re immune, most likely for life.

The evidence is strong and promising, and should be welcome and comforting news to a public that has spent the last year, 2020, in a panic over SARS-CoV-2.

Increasingly evidence is showing that long-lasting immunity exists.

Initial Reports That COVID Immunity Was Fleeting Were Flawed

Seasonal coronaviruses, some of which cause common colds, yield only short-lived protective immunity, with reinfections occurring six to 12 months after the previous infection. Early data on SARS-CoV-2 also found that antibody titers declined rapidly in the first months after recovery from COVID-19, leading some to speculate that protective immunity against SARS-CoV-2 may also be short-lived.

Senior author of the study, Ali Ellebedy, Ph.D., an associate professor of pathology and immunology at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, pointed out that this assumption is flawed, stating in a news release:

              “Last fall, there were reports that antibodies waned quickly after infection with the virus that             causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived. But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau.”

The researchers found a biphasic pattern of antibody concentrations against SARS-CoV-2, in which high antibody concentrations were found in the acute immune response that occurred at the time of initial infection.

The antibodies declined in the first months after infection, as should be expected, then leveled off to about 10% to 20% of the maximum concentration detected. In a commentary on the study, Andreas Radbruch and Hyun-Dong Chang of the German Rheumatism Research Centre Berlin explained:

“This is consistent with the expectation that 10–20% of the plasma cells in an acute immune reaction become memory plasma cells, and is a clear indication of a shift from antibody production by short-lived plasma cells to antibody production by memory plasma cells. This is not unexpected, given that immune memory to many viruses and vaccines is stable over decades, if not for a lifetime.”

When a new infection occurs, cells called plasmablasts provide antibodies, but when the virus is cleared, longer lasting memory B cells move in to monitor blood for signs of reinfection.

Bone marrow plasma cells (BMPCs) also exist in bones, acting as “persistent and essential sources of protective antibodies.” According to Ellebedy, “A plasma cell is our life history, in terms of the pathogens we’ve been exposed to,” and it’s in these long-lived BMPCs were immunity to SARS-CoV-2 resides.

Long-Term Immunity Likely After COVID-19 Infection

For the study, blood samples were collected from 77 people who had recovered from COVID-19, about one month after the onset of symptoms; most had experienced mild cases. Additional blood samples were collected three more times at three-month intervals to track antibody production; memory B cells and bone marrow were also collected from some of the participants.

Levels of anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike protein (S) antibodies declined rapidly in the first four months after infection, then slowed over the next seven months. The most exciting part of the research is that, at both seven months and 11 months after infection, most of the participants had BMPCs that secreted antibodies specific for the spike protein encoded by SARS-CoV-2.

The BMPCs were found in amounts similar to those found in people who had been vaccinated against tetanus or diphtheria, which are considered to provide long-lasting immunity.

“Overall, our data provide strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 infection in humans robustly establishes the two arms of humoral immune memory: long-lived BMPCs and memory B cells,” the researchers noted. This is perhaps the best available evidence of long-lasting immunity, Radbruch and Chang explained, because this immunological memory is a distinct part of the immune system that’s essential to long-term protection, beyond the initial immune response to the virus:

“In the memory phase of an immune response, B and T cells that are specific for a virus are maintained in a state of dormancy, but are poised to spring into action if they encounter the virus again or a vaccine that represents it. These memory B and T cells arise from cells activated in the initial immune reaction.

The cells undergo changes to their chromosomal DNA, termed epigenetic modifications, that enable them to react rapidly to subsequent signs of infection and drive responses geared to eliminating the disease-causing agent.

B cells have a dual role in immunity: they produce antibodies that can recognize viral proteins, and they can present parts of these proteins to specific T cells or develop into plasma cells that secrete antibodies in large quantities.

About 25 years ago, it became evident that plasma cells can become memory cells themselves, and can secrete antibodies for long-lasting protection. Memory plasma cells can be maintained for decades, if not a lifetime, in the bone marrow.”

In addition, in 2020 it was reported that people who had recovered from SARS-CoV — a virus that is genetically closely related to SARS-CoV-2 and belongs to the same viral species — maintained significant levels of neutralizing antibodies at least 17 years after initial infection. This also suggests that long-term immunity against SARS-CoV-2 should be expected. Ellebedy even said the protection is likely to continue “indefinitely”:

“These [BMPC] cells are not dividing. They are quiescent, just sitting in the bone marrow and secreting antibodies. They have been doing that ever since the infection resolved, and they will continue doing that indefinitely.”

References

• Nature May 24, 2021
• NewsWise May 24, 2021
• Nature June 14, 2021
• Nature. 1997 Jul 10;388(6638):133-4. doi: 10.1038/40540
• Nature May 26, 2021
• Adv Immunol. 2002;80:115-81. doi: 10.1016/s0065-2776(02)80014-1
• Nature. 1997 Jul 10;388(6638):133-4. doi: 10.1038/40540
• European Journal of Immunology May 19, 2021
• Emerg Microbes Infect. 2020; 9(1): 900–902

FFS…You do realize that the first known US death from the Omicron variant was somebody who had been preciously infected. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Just now, lippy said:

FFS…You do realize that the first known US death from the Omicron variant was somebody who had been preciously infected. 

There have been quite a few cases of previously infected people getting it a second (or third) time.

Depending on the severity of the first case, if the person has significant damage, they often die from the second case.

I hope long term protection is real, and there's lots of reasons to believe that it is, but it's not certain.

Note: From what I understand, people who have had Covid and are fully vaxed are the most protected (doesn't matter if the infection or vax came first).

[gowlerk 1,911]

53 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Interesting. Perhaps it's time to put prior infection on the same footing as the shot. 

Interesting to me is that despite the title over the headline saying "TIMEDecember 21, 2021" when I go to the Time website that story is not there. Perhaps you could link to the REAL source?

As a matter of fact it took me a few minutes to find that it comes from "Epoch Times" and here is the AP story debunking it.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-558851199032

I will note that even Donald Trump, famously infected with the virus has been triple vaccinated since then and encourages others to do the same.

Edited December 23, 2021 by gowlerk

[billvon 2,397]

22 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

As a matter of fact it took me a few minutes to find that it comes from "Epoch Times" and here is the AP story debunking it.

From Reuters:

===========================

Fact Check-Study did not conclude that people who have been infected with COVID-19 are protected for life

By Reuters Fact Check

A study published by researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis did not conclude that people who have had COVID-19 are protected for life, despite claims made online.

The study cited as proof on social media that infection leads to life-long protection from COVID-19 was released in May 2021 in the journal Nature is viewable (here).

 . . .

Ellebedy told Reuters that the study did not show nor claim that people infected from mild SARS-CoV-2 infection are protected for a lifetime.

“Having detectable antibody response in blood for life does NOT equal being ‘protected’ for life. Not all antibodies are protective especially if the virus they are raised against is constantly changing,” Ellebedy told Reuters.

==============

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-study-covid19-idUSL1N2T71XL

[billeisele 122]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

As a matter of fact it took me a few minutes to find that it comes from "Epoch Times" and here is the AP story debunking it.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-558851199032  

Thanks for doing the research, your skills are better than mine. Plus, I'm buried in an SS/Medicare issue.

The article you linked clarifies that prior infection doesn't provide lifelong protection, especially from variants. Makes sense, just like the shot. It goes on to say, "like the vaccination, it may reduce the chances of severe illness."

Back to my main comment - It seems that we should be recognizing prior infection on an equal footing with vaccination.

 

[gowlerk 1,911]

Just now, billeisele said:

Back to my main comment - It seems that we should be recognizing prior infection on an equal footing with vaccination.

Not according to what we know at this point. But we do know that prior infection plus vaccination provides a lot of protection. Why do you think we should neglect vaccination and take a chance when we don't have too? What is your agenda here? 

[billeisele 122]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Not according to what we know at this point. But we do know that prior infection plus vaccination provides a lot of protection. Why do you think we should neglect vaccination and take a chance when we don't have too? What is your agenda here? 

No agenda. I didn't say "neglect vaccination." Just asking a simple question.

The EU puts prior infection on the same footing as vaccination. On the European Commission website it says this about EU Digital COVID Certificates:

"The information contained in the EU Digital COVID Certificate is limited to what is necessary to provide the certification requested. Such information includes name, date of birth, the certificate issuer and a unique identifier of the certificate. In addition:

• For a vaccination certificate: vaccine type and manufacturer, number of doses received, date of vaccination;
• For a test certificate: type of test, date and time of test, place and result;
• For a recovery certificate: date of positive test result, validity period."
•  

It goes to numbers: XX% vaccinated + XX% with prior infection = % of population "protected". What number did they say for herd immunity?

I've seen numbers suggested in the range of 70 - 90%. This Mayo Clinic article doesn't state a % but does talk about the value of prior infection.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808

 

[gowlerk 1,911]

57 minutes ago, billeisele said:

The EU puts prior infection on the same footing as vaccination.

The EU also has universal healthcare, maybe you should ask for that as well. Yes they issue recovery certificates and those grant the right for EU citizens to travel within the EU. This does not mean that all EU governments treat past cases the same as vaccinated people. Many countries within the EU have mandates, especially for healthcare workers. So far the CDC says that those with past cases have some protection, but they still get re-infected at twice the rate that the vaccinated do. Omicron seems particularly able to infect both groups. Right now getting vaccinated seems to provide more protection for both groups. There are unanswered questions and as more information comes in the picture may change. Right now there is a crisis and there is no real reason not to get vaccinated. It may be like having an AAD. You probably don't need it, but you will drop the $1200 anyway because it is best practice. Getting people vaccinated is best practice in this crisis.

We need all hands on deck. Many people are suffering from other conditions because the hospitals are jammed. We can sort out the best vaccine regime later when we have more data. Clearly one dose followed by a second in 3 weeks and a third in 6 months is nothing more than an estimate. And so is the effect of prior infection. We want to do our best, it is not time to look for the easiest thing that might work. It is time to pull together and do everything we can. 

[billvon 2,397]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Back to my main comment - It seems that we should be recognizing prior infection on an equal footing with vaccination.

I'd be fine with recognizing a recent antibody test on an equal footing with vaccination.  (You can't really do "prior infection" because every anti-vaxxer out there will lie about that.)