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gowlerk

covid-19

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21 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Any proof of that idea?  "Canada did not attempt to procure any vaccine doses from the US after the Trump administration indicated it would not allow any vaccines to be exported."

Which is obviously not the same as "previously procured by Canada". The EU held up doses for a short period of time then subsequently relented.

The procurement took place prior to that announcement. Canada was early in coming to procurement agreement, knowing it lacked the facilities to manufacture domestically. One of those contracts is for instance with Pfizer. Pfizer manufactures the vaccine both in the US and the EU. The contract with Pfizer does not stipulate a manufacturing site.

So when the US allows Pfizer to ship vaccines from the US to Canada, it isn't "giving" the vaccine to Canada. It is allowing Pfizer to live up to a contractual obligation from within the US.

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21 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The procurement took place prior to that announcement. Canada was early in coming to procurement agreement, knowing it lacked the facilities to manufacture domestically. One of those contracts is for instance with Pfizer. Pfizer manufactures the vaccine both in the US and the EU. The contract with Pfizer does not stipulate a manufacturing site.

So when the US allows Pfizer to ship vaccines from the US to Canada, it isn't "giving" the vaccine to Canada. It is allowing Pfizer to live up to a contractual obligation from within the US.

No. Biden is only allowing the vaccine not approved in the US to be exported. Canada let its manufacturing facilities perish. Canada and by default Trudeau was in fact slow to procure contracts from the manufactures. Although it was faster than some EU countries. The slow pace of deliveries from the EU are consistent with the agreed contractual delivery schedules. Thats why, despite repeated questioning from the conservative party and journalists. He has refused to provide intermediate and long term dates for delivery. Why the rollout in Canada has been slower than the EU.

Canada now ranks about 40th in the world in per capita vaccinations, according to the University of Oxford’s Our World in Data. Liberals now lead Conservatives only by one point, Abacus says.. Furthermore thats after enticing India to shortchange some of its less developed customers and sell to Canada.

Canada has one main reason for being 43rd. Its slow contracted procurement scheduling. Thats Trudeau's fault. Not the US, not trump, nor anyone else.

 

Edited by Phil1111

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1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

Its slow contracted procurement scheduling.

What does that mean? If you mean the contracts have non-aggressive timelines, that may be the case, but that is not what I am talking about. it is actually completely besides the point.

 

You indicated the US was feeling bad for Canada and was giving vaccines to Canada. I simply said that allowing shipments of paid for vaccines is not the same as giving and that implying such would be disingenuous.

Canada's vaccine roll-out has been very poorly managed. Not sure why you are trying to conflate those two issues.

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7 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

What does that mean? If you mean the contracts have non-aggressive timelines,

Every contract will have a time of delivery stated, together with the price and other relevant terms. Without a time in which the goods or services are render in fact it would not be a contract.

8 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

You indicated the US was feeling bad for Canada and was giving vaccines to Canada. I simply said that allowing shipments of paid for vaccines is not the same as giving and that implying such would be disingenuous....

No I'm sure the US is allowing the manufacturer to sell the aforementioned vaccines to Canada that have not yet been approved for use in the US. Canada has NOT contracted yet for any vaccines manufactured in the US. As such, they certainly would not have been paid for. As I quoted in the linked story.

I asked you if you had any evidence to the contrary. So far you have not supplied such evidence.

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7 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Every contract will have a time of delivery stated, together with the price and other relevant terms. Without a time in which the goods or services are render in fact it would not be a contract.

No I'm sure the US is allowing the manufacturer to sell the aforementioned vaccines to Canada that have not yet been approved for use in the US. Canada has NOT contracted yet for any vaccines manufactured in the US. As such, they certainly would not have been paid for. As I quoted in the linked story.

I asked you if you had any evidence to the contrary. So far you have not supplied such evidence.

He can't. He's just nipping at heels as always. Giving an inch would be to concede that the Canadian health care system has it's issues, too.

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One shot for many, or two shots for fewer?  Has the UK finally got something right?
 

One jab is doing the job

The global leaders in Covid-19 vaccination rates are Israel and the United Arab Emirates. After them come a handful of countries that have each given between 30 and 45 shots for every 100 residents, including the United States, Britain, Bahrain, Chile and Serbia.

19-MORNING-2subVACCINETABLE-articleLarge.png
By The New York Times | Sources: Local governments via Our World in Data

But these handful of countries have followed two different strategies. The U.S. and most others have tried to make sure that anybody who gets a first vaccine shot gets the second shot within a few weeks (except in the case of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which requires only one shot). Britain has instead maximized the number of people who receive one “jab,” as the British call it — and has delayed the second jab, often for about three months.

Kate Bingham, a venture capitalist who led the committee that advised the British government on vaccination, has described the strategy this way: “I think it’s the right public health response, which is to show that you try and vaccinate as many people as possible, as soon as possible. Better to protect everybody a bit rather than to vaccinate fewer people to give them an extra 10 percent protection.”

So far, the data suggest that Britain’s approach is working — because even a single shot provides strong protection against the virus.

A delay seems OK

As Dr. Robert Wachter of the University of California, San Francisco, has written, “According to most vaccine experts, delaying shot #2 by a few months is unlikely to materially diminish the ultimate effectiveness of two shots.”

In Britain, the daily number of new Covid cases has fallen by more than 90 percent since peaking in early January. The decline is larger than in virtually any other country. (In the U.S., new cases have fallen 79 percent since January.) Given that the contagious B.1.1.7 variant was first discovered in Britain and is now the country’s dominant virus form, “Britain’s free-fall in cases is all the more impressive,” Wachter told me. “Clearly their vaccination strategy has been highly effective.”

British deaths have also plummeted in recent weeks:

19-MORNING-DEATHS-articleLarge.png
By The New York Times | Sources: Hospitals, health agencies and Johns Hopkins University

Britain’s approach not only brings immediate benefits, in terms of lives saved; it also reduces the chances of future outbreaks: The fewer people who have Covid, the fewer who can infect somebody else. That’s especially important when more contagious variants are circulating. Worldwide, the number of confirmed new cases has risen 21 percent over the past month.

It is probably too late for the U.S. to change policy and adopt the British approach. Doing so would create widespread confusion and frustration. Still, there are lessons from Britain:

  • Speeding up a vaccination program brings enormous benefits. The U.S. has recently been giving about 2.5 million shots a day, up from about 800,000 in mid-January. But the federal government will soon be receiving closer to four million shots a day from the vaccine makers. A big question is whether the Biden administration and state governments will be able to continue increasing the pace at which people are getting shots in their arms.
  • For countries where vaccine programs have only just begun, as in much of South America, Africa and Asia, the British approach may be worth mimicking.
  • Finally, keep in mind that one of Britain’s main vaccines has been AstraZeneca’s — the same one that some other European countries have stopped using this week, out of concern over blood clots. But there is no sign of an increase in clots in Britain. “If the choice is potentially being exposed to Covid-19, or getting the vaccine & being protected, choose the vaccine,” Devi Sridhar, a professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, wrote yesterday.

All of this comes with the usual caveat: If the data changes, the lessons should change, too. Based on the current evidence, though, Britain appears to have landed on the most effective vaccination strategy — which is yet another sign of how powerful the vaccines are.

 

 

Edited by kallend

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On 3/18/2021 at 8:32 AM, ryoder said:

Just had Pfizer #2 yesterday.

Feeling strong! Going up to mountains to hunt bears today!

OK, bear hunt did not go as planned. Instead, spent day lying around house with a dull headache, and *extreme* fatigue. 2nd shot was brutal.

Will try bear hunt again this afternoon.

Edited by ryoder
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16 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

He can't. He's just nipping at heels as always. Giving an inch would be to concede that the Canadian health care system has it's issues, too.

Canadian healthcare system definitely has its issues, different per province. Wife spent two hours waiting for an ambulance a few weeks ago. Definite issues.

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16 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Canada has NOT contracted yet for any vaccines manufactured in the US.

Canada's contracts for vaccines are with the companies and do not state where the vaccine has to, or may be manufactured.

 

16 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

As such, they certainly would not have been paid for.

None of them have been pre-paid. Price is stipulated and generally due within 30 days of delivery.

None of this takes away from the fact the US is not giving vaccines to Canada as you stated in your post. The US is allowing shipments of vaccines, which have been contracted for, to move from the US to Canada. Under most definitions of "giving" that is not a gift.

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Just now, SkyDekker said:

Canada's contracts for vaccines are with the companies and do not state where the vaccine has to, or may be manufactured.

 

None of them have been pre-paid. Price is stipulated and generally due within 30 days of delivery.

None of this takes away from the fact the US is not giving vaccines to Canada as you stated in your post. The US is allowing shipments of vaccines, which have been contracted for, to move from the US to Canada. Under most definitions of "giving" that is not a gift.

Taking lessons from Brent eh?

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The vaccines are, as far as I understand it, in the possession of the US, part of their stockpile. I think it's a matter of the US got first dibs, and are sitting on them. Now how they got to be part of the US stockpile is probably an excellent question, and part of any country's taking care of what they perceive to be their needs first. A little too aggressively in this case probably, but I'm also probably not the best judge of that.

Wendy P.

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Trying to find some facts about Canada vaccine orders, I found this:

The UK has ordered a total of 367m vaccine doses – more than five times its population – of which 100m are the Oxford vaccine. It has ordered 60m doses each of vaccines from Valneva, Novavax and Janssen.

Canada, Chile, Australia and New Zealand are the only countries with a higher rate, with enough supplies from companies with phase 3 results to give their people at least four doses each.

WTF???

Source: Canada and UK among countries with most vaccine doses ordered per person

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3 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

The vaccines are, as far as I understand it, in the possession of the US, part of their stockpile. I think it's a matter of the US got first dibs, and are sitting on them. Now how they got to be part of the US stockpile is probably an excellent question, and part of any country's taking care of what they perceive to be their needs first. A little too aggressively in this case probably, but I'm also probably not the best judge of that.

Wendy P.

Clearly the US has taken a look at the supply of the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which is not approved for use there and likely will not be for quite some time if ever, and decided that it should allow export of the product before it expires and perhaps they will have to pay for it. The USA does not need or want this product. Nothing is being given.

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6 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Trying to find some facts about Canada vaccine orders, I found this:

The UK has ordered a total of 367m vaccine doses – more than five times its population – of which 100m are the Oxford vaccine. It has ordered 60m doses each of vaccines from Valneva, Novavax and Janssen.

Canada, Chile, Australia and New Zealand are the only countries with a higher rate, with enough supplies from companies with phase 3 results to give their people at least four doses each.

WTF???

Source: Canada and UK among countries with most vaccine doses ordered per person

From Canada's perspective that makes perfect sense. Two main drivers:

  1. Contracts were signed prior to knowing which, if any, company would get to an approved vaccine.
  2. Knowing we don't (yet) have the manufacturing capacity AND that countries manufacturing a vaccine might limit or ban export, it makes sense to overbuy.

 

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11 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Clearly the US has taken a look at the supply of the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which is not approved for use there and likely will not be for quite some time if ever, and decided that it should allow export of the product before it expires and perhaps they will have to pay for it. The USA does not need or want this product. Nothing is being given.

Only additional item I will add here is that Canada signed an agreement with AstraZeneca in September 2020 for 20 million doses.

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4 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

From Canada's perspective that makes perfect sense. Two main drivers:

  1. Contracts were signed prior to knowing which, if any, company would get to an approved vaccine.
  2. Knowing we don't (yet) have the manufacturing capacity AND that countries manufacturing a vaccine might limit or ban export, it makes sense to overbuy.

 

Yes, the government here did all they could as early as possible and is still taking political heat over the fact that we are not able to vaccinate the population as quickly as the US is due to supply shortages. It would be worse without the contracts signed early. I am 63 and still not eligible for an appointment. It will likely be about 3 to 4 more weeks until I actually receive a shot. Even then I will have to wait up to 120 days for the second shot as the Province has made a decision to get first doses into as many people as possible.

The effort here has been very efficient with well organized centres getting people in and out on time with little waiting in lines.

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2 hours ago, ryoder said:

OK, bear hunt did not go as planned. Instead, spent day lying around house with a dull headache, and *extreme* fatigue. 2nd shot was brutal.

Will try bear hunt again this afternoon.

Hi Robert,

2nd Pfizer shot last Sunday and no ill effects.

Jerry Baumchen

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Hi folks,

So many choices:   the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New Orleans released a statement saying that the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is “morally compromised as it uses the abortion-derived cell line

The J&J vaccine was developed with stem cells. That’s caused confusion and division among Catholics. - oregonlive.com

I would just let them not sign up for the vaccine.

Jerry Baumchen

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Just now, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

So many choices:   the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New Orleans released a statement saying that the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is “morally compromised as it uses the abortion-derived cell line

The J&J vaccine was developed with stem cells. That’s caused confusion and division among Catholics. - oregonlive.com

I would just let them not sign up for the vaccine.

Jerry Baumchen

Ummmmm.....The Catholic church is pretty well "morally compromised". No confusion there.

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"God bless America, they're coming to our rescue."

"Thank god, I've been bugging (former president Donald trump), I've been bugging (President Joe Biden), all of them they must get sick of Doug Ford asking for help, but our greatest partner, our greatest trading partner, our greatest friend in the world, President Biden, thank you," said Ford at a press conference on Thursday afternoon.

Earlier in the day, Reuters reported that the U.S. was planning to send 1.5 million doses of AstraZeneca, made at a U.S. facility but not yet approved to be used in the country, to Canada under loan. The news outlet quoted a White House spokesperson who said this was the goal, though the deal wasn't yet finalized.

Ford said he would label the U.S. president as "the champion" once the province gets the vaccines."

There was no elaboration as what "the champion" meant or what benefits were attached to that designation.

"Canada was first to sign with Moderna. It signed a contract with Pfizer and BioNTech a week later, on Aug. 1. It was the fourth country to do so, after the United Kingdom, the United States and Japan.

Canada had deals with four other vaccine companies, including Moderna, Pfizer/BioNTech, Johnson & Johnson, and NovaVax. It added deals with Sanofi/GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca in September and then with Canada's own Medicago the next month."

Canada is receiving two million AstraZeneca doses directly from India.

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15 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

So many choices:   the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New Orleans released a statement saying that the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is “morally compromised as it uses the abortion-derived cell line

The J&J vaccine was developed with stem cells. That’s caused confusion and division among Catholics. - oregonlive.com

I would just let them not sign up for the vaccine.

Jerry Baumchen

I had the J&J vaccine 2 days ago. 9 hours later, felt a little "off". I had fever/chills overnight, and generally felt like crap for about a day. Two days later, no problems. I know I'm only a single data point, but I had already had covid, and the anecdotes about some vaccines negatively impacting people who've already had it definitely held true for me. 

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