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gowlerk

covid-19

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The Dutch minister of Justice and Safety, who is one of the three figureheads of the anti-Covid campain in the Netherlands has been photographed while at his wedding at times not observing social distancing. The press were having a field day. Then new pictures came out with him actually shaking hands and hugging his mother in law.

It will be interesting to see how he is going to defend himself in the coming debate.

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I have two people working for me who are on the conservative side of the spectrum.  One at least is willing to do what the head of the mission is requiring WRT to mask wearing in shared spaces, though he does like to complain about his glasses fogging up.  He'll also have conversations and listen to other arguments.  His mind might not be changed, but he is smart enough to know when to stop the argument.

The other is one of those who loves to spew the binary points of view -- like mask wearing does nothing to stem the spread, schools should be open because kids are at such a low risk, and Ron DeSantis is a brilliant leader (I'm a Florida resident, so he thinks that's some common ground).  He brought up talking points today like, "the science just doesn't support [this or that recommendation]," or, even better, comparing the impact in Florida to what happened in New York (calls Cuomo an idiot but DeSantis is the smart one).  

Interestingly, though he will put up "statistics" to back his statements (apples-to-footballs comparisons), anything I try to offer even to put those stats into a more comparable context is quickly and definitively dismissed.  This is the type of person who would have followed guidance from POTUS had the whole "let's wear face coverings and prove those dems WRONG!" message been promulgated.  As it stands, there is no changing this guy's mind. 

Though frustrating as hell, I have better things to do with my day than to try to convince this guy of anything he doesn't already believe.  This is the demographic that is hurting the efforts to slow the spread.  Unfortunately, it's going to take another 20 or so years of bringing certain subjects back into schools (basic hygiene, disease prevention, critical thinking skills, understanding reporting [digging for the source and understanding how information is interpreted]).

And while there were serious problems with the way schools used to teach/grade "citizenship," I'm not opposed to trying to work some of that back into public school attitudes.  We've gotten way too far away from "good of many" and seem to focus almost exclusively on "good of one."

 

 

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(edited)

I'm sure the people involved in hauling off and prepping for burial those 1,000 or so Americans who are still dying each day from Covid-19 will support THAT story...

They WON'T you say? Hmm. What a joke of an article. 

If you want to compare that number to something else, consider this:  That correlates to about the same number of people we lost in the 8-10 year period of the Vietnam War...in a mere 48 days or so.

And in roughly the last six months, we've already lost FOUR TIMES the number of people killed in that war...from the virus. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

And in a surprise to absolutely nobody

 

"US told to get ready for vaccine 'by November'"... It's Trump's Hail Mary pass and it's reckless, irresponsible and dangerous.

Disregarding the potential risks of an unproven vaccine that has had limited testing, a botched roll out will result in large swaths of the population being less likely to get a better vaccine when the time comes, 'well the last one didn't work...', guaranteeing we'll continue to have a Covid issue for years to come.

Edited by yoink

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2 hours ago, yoink said:

"US told to get ready for vaccine 'by November'"... It's Trump's Hail Mary pass and it's reckless, irresponsible and dangerous.

Hi Will,

Right up there with:  'Peace at last.'

As said by Kissinger as he came out of the Paris peace talks & prior to the '72 election.

It's always about the timing.

Stay tuned, more dirty film at 11.

Jerry Baumchen

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(edited)
On 9/3/2020 at 11:24 AM, yoink said:

And in a surprise to absolutely nobody

 

"US told to get ready for vaccine 'by November'"... It's Trump's Hail Mary pass and it's reckless, irresponsible and dangerous.

Disregarding the potential risks of an unproven vaccine that has had limited testing, a botched roll out will result in large swaths of the population being less likely to get a better vaccine when the time comes, 'well the last one didn't work...', guaranteeing we'll continue to have a Covid issue for years to come.

The alternative is 1,000 people per day continue to die and who knows how many several thousand per day have life-altering permanent damage. I'd say at this point it's a matter of speed over quality. There is virtually no chance that a rushed vaccine will cause more damage than the thousands that continue to die every single day that we wait. The risk/ reward benefit on this one falls squarely on the benefit outweighing the risk (substantially). The vaccines are already in phase 3 which means the FDA has already cleared them as being safe. So worst case scenario, they just dont work which that by itself is unlikely as vaccines that flat out dont work rarely make it to stage 3 in the first place. At this point I see no reason why they shouldent make the stage 3 vaccines freely available for anyone who wants one. No one is forcing you to take one so if you dont think it will work, just dont take it. I'll happily take the risk that the shot I am getting might not work over the firm certainty that eventual infection is a complete inevitability without a vaccine.

Edited by Westerly

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33 minutes ago, Westerly said:

The alternative is 1,000 people per day continue to die and who knows how many several thousand per day have life-altering permanent damage. I'd say at this point it's a matter of speed over quality. There is virtually no chance that a rushed vaccine will cause more damage than the thousands that continue to die every single day that we wait.

Here's the risk for a 100% safe but useless vaccine:

  • Joe Average gets the vaccine.  "Woohoo!" he thinks.  "I am immune!   I can party again!"
  • Jeff Businessowner hears about Joe.  "Woohoo!" he thinks.  "I can reopen!"  He calls -
  • Jack the City Council Member.  Jack thinks "Woohoo!  People are immune now.  All the suffering of our city's gyms and bars will come to an end and I will get the credit!"  He votes to reopen the city and announces that he made the call to save hundreds of businesses.
  • Trump reads about Jack.  "Woohoo!" he tweets.  "I alone had the power to cure the country and I DID cure it!  Reopen everything!  Stocks will rise!  Unemployment will go down!  I will be re-elected!"

Everyone celebrates.  The bars are packed.  In a month, 2000 people a day are dying.  That's the risk.

Quote

The vaccines are already in phase 3 which means the FDA has already cleared them as being safe.

Well, no.  Phase 1 tests safety on a small scale; phase 3 tests safety on a large scale.  So there will be some risks.  As to whether the risks are worth it is a decision that will have to be made by doctors.

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University administrators in Alabama are following Trump's lead on COVID-19 mitigation:

The University of Alabama made headlines this week with the shocking announcement that more than 500 students, faculty, and staff had tested positive for the coronavirus in the first five days of classes. But professors at the university say they were just as disturbed by emails from the administration telling them not to speak up about outbreaks.

In an email to the politics department, professors were explicitly instructed not to tell their students if someone in a class tests positive. 

“Do not tell the rest of the class,” the email reads, with the word “not” underlined.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/university-of-alabama-told-profs-not-to-tell-students-about-covid-infected-classmates?ref=home

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

University administrators in Alabama are following Trump's lead on COVID-19 mitigation:

The University of Alabama made headlines this week with the shocking announcement that more than 500 students, faculty, and staff had tested positive for the coronavirus in the first five days of classes. But professors at the university say they were just as disturbed by emails from the administration telling them not to speak up about outbreaks.

In an email to the politics department, professors were explicitly instructed not to tell their students if someone in a class tests positive. 

“Do not tell the rest of the class,” the email reads, with the word “not” underlined.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/university-of-alabama-told-profs-not-to-tell-students-about-covid-infected-classmates?ref=home

Lawyers love that s*#t.

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(edited)
7 hours ago, billvon said:

Here's the risk for a 100% safe but useless vaccine:

  • Joe Average gets the vaccine.  "Woohoo!" he thinks.  "I am immune!   I can party again!"
  • Jeff Businessowner hears about Joe.  "Woohoo!" he thinks.  "I can reopen!"  He calls -
  • Jack the City Council Member.  Jack thinks "Woohoo!  People are immune now.  All the suffering of our city's gyms and bars will come to an end and I will get the credit!"  He votes to reopen the city and announces that he made the call to save hundreds of businesses.
  • Trump reads about Jack.  "Woohoo!" he tweets.  "I alone had the power to cure the country and I DID cure it!  Reopen everything!  Stocks will rise!  Unemployment will go down!  I will be re-elected!"

Everyone celebrates.  The bars are packed.  In a month, 2000 people a day are dying.  That's the risk.

Well, no.  Phase 1 tests safety on a small scale; phase 3 tests safety on a large scale.  So there will be some risks.  As to whether the risks are worth it is a decision that will have to be made by doctors.

Yes there are some risks to a phase 3 trial, but they are low enough that the FDA feels comfortable releasing it to tens of thousands of people. You have to pretty damn almost sure about its safety to issue a vaccine to 30,000+ people. Regarding your scenario, I dont buy into that because the type of people who are going to go bar hopping in the first place are exactly the same type of people who think that Covid is fake news bullshit that's part of a political conspiracy and they think vaccines cause autism and should be avoided at all costs. The type of person willing to take an experimental vaccine is the type of person who's cautious about avoiding infection (hints the motivation to take an experimental vaccine in the first place) and informed and intelligent enough to know that what they are taking, even if highly effective, will never be a cure or a complete prevention. They should be smart enough to know it only reduces, but not eliminates, ones risk.

So put simply, I think your scenario is unrealistically extreme because the type of people who would fit into the demographic of those who would partake in your scenario are the literal perfect example of the exact type of person who would never get vaccinated against Covid let alone take an experimental vaccine.

Edited by Westerly

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(edited)
On 9/2/2020 at 11:24 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm sure the people involved in hauling off and prepping for burial those 1,000 or so Americans who are still dying each day from Covid-19 will support THAT story...

They WON'T you say? Hmm. What a joke of an article. 

If you want to compare that number to something else, consider this:  That correlates to about the same number of people we lost in the 8-10 year period of the Vietnam War...in a mere 48 days or so.

And in roughly the last six months, we've already lost FOUR TIMES the number of people killed in that war...from the virus. 

Get out of here with your logical reasoning and all that shit. Everyone knows it's no big deal and it's just the flu. until they get it and end up in the ICU that is. I still see most DZs are taking few real precautions. For many people, the hard way is the only way.

Edited by Westerly

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On 9/2/2020 at 9:10 AM, airdvr said:

Not really. Have you read it? It's a joke. 29 exceptions including #27 a through f items covering buying fabric safely.  Basically you can not beach lounge for a week but walking to the water to surf, fish with your buddy or skip stones is A-OK. Otherwise, just have your excuse ready. Mahalo.

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4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Not really. Have you read it? It's a joke. 29 exceptions including #27 a through f items covering buying fabric safely.  Basically you can not beach lounge for a week but walking to the water to surf, fish with your buddy or skip stones is A-OK. Otherwise, just have your excuse ready. Mahalo.

I didn't read much past page 3....

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1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

It’s an aspirational goal.
The request to post something pertinent is supposed to help discourage attaching-by-title, but sometimes the details escape. 

Wendy P. 

I'm thinking that including the post one is commenting on with the reply might be another good rule :)

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On 9/2/2020 at 3:52 PM, Baksteen said:

The Dutch minister of Justice and Safety, who is one of the three figureheads of the anti-Covid campain in the Netherlands has been photographed while at his wedding at times not observing social distancing. The press were having a field day. Then new pictures came out with him actually shaking hands and hugging his mother in law.

It will be interesting to see how he is going to defend himself in the coming debate.

He owned his mistake, apologised deeply and emotionally and is allowed to stay on with a reprimand.

Populist opposition moved to dismiss him, but got little support from serious parties.
Populists also demanded that all Corona related fines and cases were dismissed, to which the minister replied that that it would be a funny old world if court cases would get dismissed because he himself made a mistake, no matter how severe.

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On 9/4/2020 at 1:09 PM, billvon said:

...  Phase 1 tests safety on a small scale; phase 3 tests safety on a large scale.  So there will be some risks.  As to whether the risks are worth it is a decision that will have to be made by doctors.

And now AstraZeneca has suspended the large scale trials of their vaccine.

 

https://apnews.com/4239b8c69ba4b3703b2ca8c77810bf07

One patient in the UK developed a serious condition. Could be the vaccine, could be a coincidence. 

 

From the article:
 

Quote

Dr. Ashish Jha of Brown University said via Twitter that the significance of the interruption was unclear but that he was “still optimistic” that an effective vaccine will be found in the coming months.

“But optimism isn’t evidence,” he wrote. “Let’s let science drive this process.”

Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at Columbia University in New York, tweeted that the illness may be unrelated to the vaccine, “but the important part is that this is why we do trials before rolling out a vaccine to the general public.”

During the third and final stage of testing, researchers look for any signs of possible side effects that may have gone undetected in earlier patient research. Because of their large size, the studies are considered the most important study phase for picking up less common side effects and establishing safety.

But hey, Putin has released a vaccine that hasn't been completely tested.
What could possibly go wrong?

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