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gowlerk

covid-19

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57 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

So maybe you could explain the other 453000 from other countries . . .

Who's fault is that?

Theirs.  And since we have a lot more deaths based on our population, a much larger share of the fault is ours.

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1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

That's a non answer - Who's fault are the other 453,000 deaths?

Surely if you can blame one guy for 138K you can blame the rest on someone.

We can, if you'd like.  You see we used to have a team of people inside China.  When previous threats arose we worked closely with China to study and manage them.  Those people and that relationship did not exist this time and we can only theorize if it would have done what it did every single other previous time a threat appeared since the early 2000's.

So first, this is a description of our ability to sense and track possible pandemics as of December 2016:

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/NSTC/towards_epidemic_prediction-federal_efforts_and_opportunities.pdf

It's called the "Pandemic Prediction and Forecasting Science and Technology Working Group" and it was effectively dissolved in 2018.

Edited by DJL

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1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

So maybe you could explain the other 453000 from other countries . . .

Who's fault is that?

 

47 minutes ago, billvon said:

Theirs.  And since we have a lot more deaths based on our population, a much larger share of the fault is ours.

Oh stop it with the sensible answers, billvon - Turtle will just conveniently ignore that and tell himself "nobody was able to answer my question", or somehow twist it into "hah, none of this is Trump's fault. He's only the most powerful man in the country after all".

Edited by olofscience

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6 minutes ago, olofscience said:

 

Oh stop it with the sensible answers, billvon - Turtle will just conveniently ignore that and tell himself "nobody was able to answer my question", or somehow twist it into "hah, none of this is Trump's fault. He's only the most powerful man in the country after all".

Not at all - I am waiting on specific people to be blamed.

We have exactly One right now that is being specifically blamed - who are the others.

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10 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Not at all - I am waiting on specific people to be blamed.

We have exactly One right now that is being specifically blamed - who are the others.

Surely there is more than one person in the world besides Trump.

I say this - because - by reading speakers corner - there isn't.

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12 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Surely there is more than one person in the world besides Trump.

I say this - because - by reading speakers corner - there isn't.

Trump does something good - "Why aren't more people talking about what Trump did?  He's GREAT but here on Speaker's Corner no one wants to admit that!"

Trump does something bad - "Why don't we talk about lots of other people?  Why is Speaker's Corner always talking about Trump?"

(And to head off your usual intentional misunderstanding, those are paraphrases.)

 

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10 minutes ago, billvon said:

Trump does something good - "Why aren't more people talking about what Trump did?  He's GREAT but here on Speaker's Corner no one wants to admit that!"

Trump does something bad - "Why don't we talk about lots of other people?  Why is Speaker's Corner always talking about Trump?"

(And to head off your usual intentional misunderstanding, those are paraphrases.)

 

The first part is sort-of correct.  It's the bias here.  The incorrect part is that Trump really isn't all that great.  The rest is about right though. 

The second also only partly correct.

Credit where credit is due - except no one here (with very very few exceptions) on the left can stomach giving any good credit to Trump.

There has to be more people in the world of leaders besides Trump.  

 

 

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25 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

There has to be more people in the world of leaders besides Trump.  

 

Sure there are.  Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand Prime Minister.  Wiped out COVID in her country completely.  Andrew Cuomo, governor of New York.  Reversed the rise of SARS-CoV-2 cases in his state within a month of taking action - despite New York being the hardest hit state in the country.  And today has one of the lowest new-infection rates in the US.

People we can learn from.

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50 minutes ago, billvon said:

Sure there are.  Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand Prime Minister.  Wiped out COVID in her country completely.  Andrew Cuomo, governor of New York.  Reversed the rise of SARS-CoV-2 cases in his state within a month of taking action - despite New York being the hardest hit state in the country.  And today has one of the lowest new-infection rates in the US.

People we can learn from.

How did the thing with New York and the nursing homes go?

Kinda looks like you are cherry picking, Bill.

Edited by turtlespeed

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2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Not at all - I am waiting on specific people to be blamed.

We have exactly One right now that is being specifically blamed - who are the others.

Still going with the same strawman!

 

YOU wrote in response to me:
"Surely if you can blame one guy for 138K you can blame the rest on someone."

However, I didn't blame anyone at all as can be seen from reading the thread.

 

Your repeated attempts to weasel out of what you wrote just indicate intellectual dishonesty.  Again.

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Canadian man shot by police following mask dispute--

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/fatal-haliburton-shooting-siu-1.5650761

One could connect the dots and say that he was shot for not wearing a mask.

I know that the usual cyberthugs in this forum will take the usual steaming dump on this. And besides, he was white, so who the f*** cares. Serves him right; the evil white patriarch had it coming.

 

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6 minutes ago, markharju said:

One could connect the dots and say that he was shot for not wearing a mask.

No details released on what happened, but this might have something to do with all the un-connected dots.

 

In a news release issued Thursday morning, the SIU said investigators had recovered a pistol and a semi-automatic rifle from the scene. The firearms of two police officers were also taken into evidence, the agency said.

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25 minutes ago, markharju said:

Canadian man shot by police following mask dispute--

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/fatal-haliburton-shooting-siu-1.5650761

One could connect the dots and say that he was shot for not wearing a mask.

Won't be the first time.  Police shot people during the Spanish flu pandemic for not wearing masks.

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2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

The first part is sort-of correct.  It's the bias here.  The incorrect part is that Trump really isn't all that great.  The rest is about right though. 

The second also only partly correct.

Credit where credit is due - except no one here (with very very few exceptions) on the left can stomach giving any good credit to Trump.

There has to be more people in the world of leaders besides Trump.  

 

 

Jair Bolsonaro owns the Brasil response, which is significantly worse than the US’s. Boris Johnson ser the early tone for Great Britain. 

Earlier numbers have said that Trump can fairly honestly be assigned about half of the deaths — we are a destination and crossroads for a significant amount of world travel. 

There are a couple of people. The main thing about the US is, as you so eloquently put it early in a COVID thread, that the US has arguably (very arguably) one of the best medical systems in the world, and you expected us to do WAY better than places like Spain and Italy. While our death rate is definitely lower, our timescale and average younger age make the death rate almost guaranteed to be lower. 
Wendy P. 

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1 minute ago, wmw999 said:

Jair Bolsonaro owns the Brasil response, which is significantly worse than the US’s. Boris Johnson ser the early tone for Great Britain. 

Yep. Jair Bolsonaro is a terrible person to be in charge of a country in pretty much every respect. Here in the UK BoJo decided to follow the most optimistic scientific advice they were given and allowed the virus to spread like wildfire and put us massively on the back foot before they reversed course. But they did reverse course and take serious measures when they realised they had to. I don't think you'll ever see a reversal like that from Trump in any crisis. He's simply not capable.

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1 hour ago, markharju said:

Canadian man shot by police following mask dispute--

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/fatal-haliburton-shooting-siu-1.5650761

One could connect the dots and say that he was shot for not wearing a mask.

I know that the usual cyberthugs in this forum will take the usual steaming dump on this. And besides, he was white, so who the f*** cares. Serves him right; the evil white patriarch had it coming.

 

How many people have not been shot for not wearing a mask, but were instead either warned or cited?

I have a funny feeling he was shot because he presented a threat (real or imagined) to the officers.

29 minutes ago, jakee said:

... I don't think you'll ever see a reversal like that from Trump in any crisis. He's simply not capable.

Pence was in Wisconsin today. In his speech he touted the excellent job the Trump administration has done handling the pandemic. 

Apparently, there was a report presented on the 14th (3 days ago) that put 11 states in 'emergency' classification. It said that hose states should be rolling back the openings.

That report was not made public. 

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17 hours ago, billvon said:

Andrew Cuomo, governor of New York.  Reversed the rise of SARS-CoV-2 cases in his state within a month of taking action - despite New York being the hardest hit state in the country.

NY CoVID Deaths ~30,000 and the highest per-capita in the world. 

"On March 25, Cuomo’s Department of Health issued a mandate forcing New York nursing homes to admit coronavirus patients — a move that alarmed infectious-disease experts nationwide. . . After blistering criticism, the controversial mandate mysteriously disappeared from the Department of Health Web site, but it took almost two months for ­Cuomo to officially revise the deadly order. By that point, the damage had already been done." 

https://nypost.com/2020/07/17/andrew-cuomos-covid-19-tall-tales/

 

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There was a shit sandwich if decisions. He picked one. Other options were to keep them in hospital for full convalescence (hospitals appeared to be filling), discharge them to their homes (often those same nursing homes, or walk ups, or the street). New York City, with its crowded urban housing, small local markets, large number of flights from everywhere, multigenerational families, and reliance on sharing the same spaces (apartments, stores, etc) was always going to be a hot spot. Just as East Cupcake, ID, population of 24, was never going to be a hot spot. 
That he made a decision with bad consequences is true. He made one. He’s owned it. Not making one would have had other consequences, and we won’t know what those would have been. 
Wendy P. 

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

And maybe against his own intuition or desires, too.

Oh C'mon, Joe. In direct conflict with the information he was given. The point being is that both sides have made a lot of mistakes in this from the very beginning. Let's not put Cuomo up as patron saint of the pandemic. This whole thing should not have been nor still be politicized - by either side. 

I agree with Bill about New Zealand. But, it is an island about the size of Arizona - easy to shut down and keep everyone out. The US should have been treated like an island for three months. The executive order should have read:

Self - isolation for three months - don't leave the house

Economic Freeze - to include all loans

Price Freeze

Rent Freeze

Mortgage Freeze

Travel Freeze

Do not pay your utility bills - we will cover that.

We are going to send you $2,000/month for food for the next three months. 

We are going to supply the money for food banks in each city to feed the homeless. 

Go home, learn to play games with your family, love, cook and let's get past this. 

Edited by BIGUN

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6 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

 

I agree with Bill about New Zealand. But, it is an island about the size of Arizona - easy to shut down and keep everyone out. The US should have been treated like an island for three months. The executive order should have read:

 

The EU is a better comparison with the USA.  And right now the EU is doing FAR FAR better than the USA in handling the virus.

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