covid-19

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

FFS Winsor. Without the vaccines we would have had at least three times as many dead by now. You are seriously losing your grip lately.

Oh, cut him some slack, Ken. Even wizards run out of smart things to say.

"This dying is boring."

-The last words of Richard Feynman

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

56 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Seriously? 

People are touting Tonic Water as a cure. 

People are fighting with health care workers trying to get them to give ICU patients Ivermectin, HCQ and 'intravenous vitamins' as a 'cure'.

People are claiming that the vaccine is killing more than Covid. 

They are posting "Rebukes" on FB, claiming that Jesus can stop the virus.

At the same time, the same people are denying science and reality.
Pretending that because the understanding has grown and changed since the beginning that the scientists and health care experts are 'lying'.

They latch onto blatantly false 'news' from 'sources' that have a loooooooong history of utter bullshit.

 

The gullibility and foolishness and, yes, utter stupidity of some people is stunning.
But very real.

People are that stupid.

 

Hi Joe,

Re:  People are that stupid.

And here is a perfect example:  An elected official representing Oregon’s 12th most populous county told residents . . .  they should put their faith in God, not doctors or scientists,

Oregon politician says ‘ask God’ about COVID-19 vaccination, ‘you can’t trust doctors’ - oregonlive.com

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 2,379]

30 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

And here is a perfect example:  An elected official representing Oregon’s 12th most populous county told residents . . .  they should put their faith in God, not doctors or scientists,

"Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth” said someone, and they were right.  Trump understood this very well.  Say "stolen election" often enough and people will start to believe it.  Say "ivermectin works" or "vaccines kill" or "it's a bioweapon" often enough - same thing.  Heck, Winsor's starting to believe some of that.

[kallend 1,619]

8 hours ago, winsor said:

Since the vaccine is a cure, the pandemic is over.  Yay!

I know you're smarter than that.

[Stumpy 254]

6 hours ago, kallend said:

I know you're smarter than that.

I'm not convinced. He's certainly not demonstrated it recently.

[winsor 185]

6 hours ago, kallend said:

I know you're smarter than that.

I guess there is so much stupidity afoot that it is not possible to be facetious.

Life is a stochastic process, which is to say a crapshoot, so it behooves one to load the dice as much in their favor as possible.

Is there a 'cure' to COVID-19?  So far, nothing close.

Are there ways to reduce the odds of a bad outcome?  To some extent, yes.

Is the vaccine good or bad? Most assuredly, yes. 

The key to any therapy is to balance the beneficial effects to the less desirable side effects.  This is a variation on the admonition "first, do no harm" (which would put the kibosh on most of Oncology).

As far as improving one's odds, being fat is likely the comorbidity that can be most easily addressed.  Being elderly or diabetic are tougher.

Nutritional factors that enhance one's immune system are highly recommended.  Since exposure is ultimately addressed by the immune system, either innate or enhanced by vaccines, etc., it is best that the immune system is as robust as possible.  

Of course, keeping the inoculum as low as feasible is important.  Fresh, moving air and the use of appropriate masks help greatly, while cloth masks or masks below the nose are not so good.

Are HCQ or Ivermectin cures?  Nope, but the bullshit being spread about how 'dangerous' they are makes me wonder what is the motivation for the disinformation.  Both of them are over the counter medications in a lot of the world, and their safety is based on billions of doses.  I work with people from all over Africa, and the guys who come from areas where Ivermectin is the norm are puzzled by the backlash.  Also, those parts of Africa have effectively no problem with COVID-19 (total coincidence, I'm sure).

For whatever reason, once something has been deemed 'disinformation' it is likely to drop off the scope, regardless of its merits.  It doesn't show up on Google, Facebook, Twitter or whatever.  I think Hanlon's Razor is the best guess - I'll take mass incompetence over conspiracy any time, since conspiracy gives too much credit.

As far as the religious fervor over inoculation, I'd be more impressed if the vaccines were better.  For one thing, the efficacy of the vaccines is way shy of 100%.  For another, the vaccines themselves can cause life-threatening conditions (I know two people whose hearts stopped after receiving the Moderna vaccine, one of whom they were able to revive).  For another, there is a significant cohort of vaccinated people who contract the virus and then spread the vaccine resistant virus.  Then you have Antibody Dependent Enhancement, which is not a bug, it's a feature.

I've had three rounds of the Pfizer vaccine, still wear N-95s when appropriate, eat properly and keep the fat off.

Would I recommend the vaccine for, say, an 11 year old?  Not a fucking chance.  Surviving the disease entails extensive damage that is very likely permanent, and some of the side effects of the vaccine are not much better.  If you look at the published side effects of Remdesivir and Molnupiravir, as well as those of J&J, Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, none of them lack the potential for severe risk.

Any way you cut it, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

As you were,

Winsor

 

[gowlerk 1,901]

3 hours ago, winsor said:

I guess there is so much stupidity afoot that it is not possible to be facetious.

Life is a stochastic process, which is to say a crapshoot, so it behooves one to load the dice as much in their favor as possible.

Is there a 'cure' to COVID-19?  So far, nothing close.

Are there ways to reduce the odds of a bad outcome?  To some extent, yes.

Is the vaccine good or bad? Most assuredly, yes. 

The key to any therapy is to balance the beneficial effects to the less desirable side effects.  This is a variation on the admonition "first, do no harm" (which would put the kibosh on most of Oncology).

As far as improving one's odds, being fat is likely the comorbidity that can be most easily addressed.  Being elderly or diabetic are tougher.

Nutritional factors that enhance one's immune system are highly recommended.  Since exposure is ultimately addressed by the immune system, either innate or enhanced by vaccines, etc., it is best that the immune system is as robust as possible.  

Of course, keeping the inoculum as low as feasible is important.  Fresh, moving air and the use of appropriate masks help greatly, while cloth masks or masks below the nose are not so good.

Are HCQ or Ivermectin cures?  Nope, but the bullshit being spread about how 'dangerous' they are makes me wonder what is the motivation for the disinformation.  Both of them are over the counter medications in a lot of the world, and their safety is based on billions of doses.  I work with people from all over Africa, and the guys who come from areas where Ivermectin is the norm are puzzled by the backlash.  Also, those parts of Africa have effectively no problem with COVID-19 (total coincidence, I'm sure).

For whatever reason, once something has been deemed 'disinformation' it is likely to drop off the scope, regardless of its merits.  It doesn't show up on Google, Facebook, Twitter or whatever.  I think Hanlon's Razor is the best guess - I'll take mass incompetence over conspiracy any time, since conspiracy gives too much credit.

As far as the religious fervor over inoculation, I'd be more impressed if the vaccines were better.  For one thing, the efficacy of the vaccines is way shy of 100%.  For another, the vaccines themselves can cause life-threatening conditions (I know two people whose hearts stopped after receiving the Moderna vaccine, one of whom they were able to revive).  For another, there is a significant cohort of vaccinated people who contract the virus and then spread the vaccine resistant virus.  Then you have Antibody Dependent Enhancement, which is not a bug, it's a feature.

I've had three rounds of the Pfizer vaccine, still wear N-95s when appropriate, eat properly and keep the fat off.

Would I recommend the vaccine for, say, an 11 year old?  Not a fucking chance.  Surviving the disease entails extensive damage that is very likely permanent, and some of the side effects of the vaccine are not much better.  If you look at the published side effects of Remdesivir and Molnupiravir, as well as those of J&J, Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, none of them lack the potential for severe risk.

Any way you cut it, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

As you were,

Winsor

 

Have you been taking “false news spreading” lessons? I love the technique of sprinkling just enough true statements among the complete bullshit anecdotal based lies in this rambling unfocused post.

[winsor 185]

35 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Have you been taking “false news spreading” lessons? I love the technique of sprinkling just enough true statements among the complete bullshit anecdotal based lies in this rambling unfocused post.

And your rebuttal to specifics is what?

[gowlerk 1,901]

2 minutes ago, winsor said:

And your rebuttal to specifics is what?

There would be a lot to choose from there. But my 10 hour rest period ends in a few minutes and it is time to work now. But if I were to invest the time I would eviscerate your assertions about vaccines harming people.

[DougH 270]

12 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

An elected official representing Oregon’s 12th most populous county told residents . . .  they should put their faith in God, not doctors or scientists,

If Jesus Christ was here he would put a sandal upside many heads, and would support vaccinations. In return he would be run out of town by these wankers for not being "Christian" enough, and for being in bed with the seedy Medical Establishment Illuminati. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by DougH

[Cocowheats 10]

I love this place...

So the general consensus here on DZ.com seems to be:

- Emergency approved vaccines are good to go. No need to vet it further. Nothing could go wrong with them...We have enough proof and numbers.

- If it saves one life, then it's ALL worth it. Those who are harmed by the vaccines are just dust in the wind,  comparatively.

- Your religion is garbage and stupid if it means no covid vaccine for you. Screw your first amendment rights, they mean nothing if it's covid related.

- Any actual science that refutes Covid vaccines or refutes anything about the virus itself is leftest antivaxxer propaganda.

- You're a POS if you don't get vaxxed, regardless of your health risk potential or personal beliefs.

- Government intervention in form of mandates = ok as long as they align with your own beliefs.

- You deserve to die and nobody will morn you if you don't get vaxxed.

- Orange man bad. Senile grandpa not so bad.

 

Got it. Glad we can have such open-minded conversations on here.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Cocowheats

[kallend 1,619]

24 minutes ago, Cocowheats said:

 

 

Got it. Glad we can have such open-minded conversations on here.

So many strawmen, so little time.

[BIGUN 1,042]

40 minutes ago, Cocowheats said:

You deserve to die and nobody will morn you if you don't get vaxxed.

I'm probably one of the more right-wing on here and I have reached this conclusion. I've lost three Anti-Vaxx close friends since May. We'd had arguments, we had discussions, every fucking thing they brought up; I shot down with medical information. Science, Facts, numbers, risks, proof and they still believed more in their facebook friends encouraging them to get down to the local feed store for off-brand Ivermectin, than their doctors who had encouraged them to get  the vaccine. And, they died. And, they died a fucking horrible death. Without family. Without anyone being able to hold their hands in their final moments. 

So, yeah. Fuck 'em and fuck anyone who doesn't get the vaccine. It's a selfish move not to protect your family, friends and your fellow Americans. 

@winsor - yes it is a cure - but only of everyone gets it. Ya know, kinda like polio.

I'd rather be alive with a tail growing outta my ass in ten years than dead next week. [/sarcasm]

[gowlerk 1,901]

9 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I'm probably one of the more right-wing on here and I have reached this conclusion. I've lost three Anti-Vaxx close friends since May. We'd had arguments, we had discussions, every fucking thing they brought up; I shot down with medical information. Science, Facts, numbers, risks, proof and they still believed more in their facebook friends encouraging them to get down to the local feed store for off-brand Ivermectin, than their doctors who had encouraged them to get  the vaccine. And, they died. And, they died a fucking horrible death. Without family. Without anyone being able to hold their hands in their final moments. 

So, yeah. Fuck 'em and fuck anyone who doesn't get the vaccine. It's a selfish move not to protect your family, friends and your fellow Americans. 

@winsor - yes it is a cure - but only of everyone gets it. Ya know, kinda like polio.

I'd rather be alive with a tail growing outta my ass in ten years than dead next week. [/sarcasm]

Yes anti-vaxxers are doing us all a lot of harm. It is starting to become more than just tiresome.

[Stumpy 254]

42 minutes ago, kallend said:

So many strawmen, so little time.

Perfect response.

[Bigfalls 110]

13 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

Re:  People are that stupid.

And here is a perfect example:  An elected official representing Oregon’s 12th most populous county told residents . . .  they should put their faith in God, not doctors or scientists,

Oregon politician says ‘ask God’ about COVID-19 vaccination, ‘you can’t trust doctors’ - oregonlive.com

Jerry Baumchen

Not to worry, come Halloween the Great Pumpkin will bring the vaccine.  You can trust him/her.  Or you can wait until Christmas and Santa Claus will bring it.  You really can trust Santa Claus.  How about he Easter Bunny, he is pretty cute.  Ok your last chance is the Tooth Fairy but it may cost you a tooth but no worries, they have dental implants.  God doesn't seem to be too reliable, maybe he is on vacation or in ICU on a respirator, 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Bigfalls

[SkyDekker 1,120]

16 hours ago, yoink said:

I'll also just leave this here from the BBC:

"The BBC can reveal that more than a third of 26 major trials of the drug for use on Covid have serious errors or signs of potential fraud. None of the rest show convincing evidence of ivermectin's effectiveness.

Dr Kyle Sheldrick, one of the group investigating the studies, said they had not found "a single clinical trial" claiming to show that ivermectin prevented Covid deaths that did not contain "either obvious signs of fabrication or errors so critical they invalidate the study"."

Ah but that is all part of the great conspiracy. If you were only as smart as Winsor, then you would be able to see that!

[billvon 2,379]

6 hours ago, winsor said:

Are HCQ or Ivermectin cures?  Nope

Agreed.  

Quote

but the bullshit being spread about how 'dangerous' they are makes me wonder what is the motivation for the disinformation. 

Followed shortly by:

Quote

If you look at the published side effects of Remdesivir and Molnupiravir, as well as those of J&J, Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, none of them lack the potential for severe risk.

Apparently you are annoyed that anyone could possibly claim ivermectin is dangerous, but feel you are doing a public service by pointing out how dangerous vaccines are.

Let's look at the published side effects of ivermectin:

- weakness
- fever
- vision changes
- neck/back pain
- chest pain / tachycardia
- seizures
- loss of consciousness.

Now let's look at the published side effects of the Pfizer vaccine:

- Pain
- Redness
- Headache
- Muscle pain
- Chills
- Fever
- Nausea

In other words, it's similar to ivermectin, but without the seizures, vision problems, heart problems and loss of consciousness.  And unlike ivermectin, it actually reduces infection rates, severity of illness, hospital admissions and death.

If people really have a hankering for ivermectin because all their friends take it, I recommend getting some fish-oil supplements, relabeling the bottle to "ivermectin" and giving it to them.  Far safer and it will actually help them.

Further, if people have a fear of vaccines, I recommend having them follow a recent right-wing meme - get the vaccine, get a snakebite kit to "extract" the vaccine, and then reassure them that the toxins/bioweapon/microchips have been extracted.  Again, far safer - and it may just save their life.

Quote

the vaccines themselves can cause life-threatening conditions (I know two people whose hearts stopped after receiving the Moderna vaccine, one of whom they were able to revive.)

That's nothing compared to, say, the polio vaccine.  Of the people who I know who got the polio vaccine when it first came out, 80% of them are now dead.  80%!  They died of suspicious causes, primarily heart disease, but also cancer, stroke and Alzheimer's.  

Given that everyone gets the polio vaccine without a second thought, and given that the COVID-19 vaccines are far safer, it's difficult to see any valid justification for their terror over the vaccine.

[BIGUN 1,042]

57 minutes ago, billvon said:

That's nothing compared to, say, the polio vaccine.  Of the people who I know who got the polio vaccine when it first came out, 80% of them are now dead.  80%!  They died of suspicious causes, primarily heart disease, but also cancer, stroke and Alzheimer's.  

70+ years later. :)

While not a Desert Review article; here is some information from 2015 from the NIH on vaccines and adverse reactions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/

[winsor 185]

10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

70+ years later. :)

While not a Desert Review article; here is some information from 2015 from the NIH on vaccines and adverse reactions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/

FWIW, mRNA vaccines are significantly different than the vaccines under discussion in the article, and much of the claims made therein do not apply.

I suppose it would be easier to have the kind of blind faith that some posters here show, but I don't trust much of anything 100%.

As noted by Dr.Cox on the TV show Scrubs, the best the medical profession can do is postpone the inevitable.  The medical profession is one that generally works the percentages, but the grasp of statistical analysis by all too many physicians is remarkably weak.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[billvon 2,379]

18 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

70+ years later. :)

Are you saying that just because those people died, that does not mean there is a link between the vaccine and their death????

Quite the radical claim!

 

[BIGUN 1,042]

1 hour ago, winsor said:

FWIW, mRNA vaccines are significantly different than the vaccines under discussion in the article, and much of the claims made therein do not apply.

The article is true for traditional vaccines which refutes your earlier claim that vaccines are less than efficient. wrt the above statement. The mRNA Vaccines are better. 

https://www.vumc.org/viiii/infographics/how-does-mrna-vaccine-compare-traditional-vaccine

Look, you can argue all you want, but the fact is - this shit works and we are on the eve of an entire new way to immunize society. 

[Cocowheats 10]

20 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

.....They latch onto blatantly false 'news' from 'sources' that have a loooooooong history of utter bullshit......

What, like the US Gov? Like Dr. Fauci? Like the WHO or CDC? Those all have a pretty loooooong history of bs...

So WHO should we be listening to? Shit, Jesus seems as good of an answer as any of the above...and most of us know waiting for Jesus to vax us with the perfect vax is as likely as surviving a HALO jump without a parachute (pretty low odds).

Edited October 8, 2021 by Cocowheats

[gowlerk 1,901]

4 minutes ago, Cocowheats said:

What, like the US Gov? Like Dr. Fauci? Like the WHO or CDC?

Who EXACTLY should we be listening to? Shit, Jesus seems as good of an answer as any of the above...and most of us know waiting for Jesus to vaxx us is as likely as surviving a HALO jump without a parachute (pretty low odds).

They all have a long history of bullshit...

Speaking of long history, not once has Jesus ever vaccinated anyone. However a long list of diseases that have affected mankind have been tamed or mostly tamed using vaccines. Covid will join that list.

But now you’re asking who you should listen to. And I will tell you who you should listen to. You should go see your doctor and listen to him or her and do what she says

Edited October 8, 2021 by gowlerk

[Cocowheats 10]

4 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Speaking of long history, not once has Jesus ever vaccinated anyone. However a long list of diseases that have affected mankind have been tamed or mostly tamed using vaccines. Covid will join that list.

But now you’re asking who you should listen to. And I will tell you who you should listen to. You should go see your doctor and listen to him or her and do what she says

But my Dr says I don't need the vaccine, especially since I've already had Covid, and that he wouldn't take it either.

So listen to my Dr, unless DZ.com disagrees? This place seems to think my Dr shouldn't be practicing,yet he is suppose to be who I listen to?

I'm so confused I guess...