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kallend

Promises kept

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3 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Obama and his promise of transparency worked out as well as Trups declaration that he would drain the swamp.

Yes, but do you actually believe that Trump really ever meant to want to drain the swamp (meaning get rid of people who want to use their political power for their own gain--and not just get rid of the ones who weren't adding to HIS gain?)

I know: It's easy to say that these 2 are equivalent and there is no way to prove they are not (by just looking at the statements)...but do you actually BELIEVE they are?

Maybe you do. It shows that in the end most politics is much more about tribal feelings than anything else. To me, Obama makes sense and seems reasonable. He is a politician, and of course I don't know him personally, so I can't say for sure, but it is extremely easy for me to believe that he WANTED to be transparent and then found the pressures and repercussions just too heavy, and so he wasn't able to be completely transparent.

With Trump, I just cannot possibly imagine that he ever wanted to remove corruption from the system, when everything he does and says seems to be geared only towards his own personal benefit--and he doesn't even in the least try to hide this.

Again, you may see this differently, but it's hard for me to see HOW. You really believe that Trump wanted to get rid of corruption and personal enrichment in government officials (including himself?)

The guy really makes sense to you?

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40 minutes ago, mbohu said:

Yes, but do you actually believe that Trump really ever meant to want to drain the swamp (meaning get rid of people who want to use their political power for their own gain--and not just get rid of the ones who weren't adding to HIS gain?)

I know: It's easy to say that these 2 are equivalent and there is no way to prove they are not (by just looking at the statements)...but do you actually BELIEVE they are?

Maybe you do. It shows that in the end most politics is much more about tribal feelings than anything else. To me, Obama makes sense and seems reasonable. He is a politician, and of course I don't know him personally, so I can't say for sure, but it is extremely easy for me to believe that he WANTED to be transparent and then found the pressures and repercussions just too heavy, and so he wasn't able to be completely transparent.

With Trump, I just cannot possibly imagine that he ever wanted to remove corruption from the system, when everything he does and says seems to be geared only towards his own personal benefit--and he doesn't even in the least try to hide this.

Again, you may see this differently, but it's hard for me to see HOW. You really believe that Trump wanted to get rid of corruption and personal enrichment in government officials (including himself?)

The guy really makes sense to you?

I believe that Trump's intentions to drain the swamp are equivalent to Obama's want to give the American people 100% Transparency. 

I agree with the tribalism.

There are a LOT of people that will not ever give the benefit of the doubt to Trump, Just as there are a LOT of people that will never give Obama the BOTD, even though his time is over and the results can be measured.  

Its not fair, or just, but in the end, it's the team you root for.

Does he make sense to me?  I think I understand what you are asking.

I do not agree with a lot of what he does, but I can see his points.  He is not the whole problem, nor is he the majority of the problem.  Trump is a symptom.

He'll be gone in a few years and we can go back to bitching about the unacceptable things that the next President does.

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Just now, turtlespeed said:

I believe that Trump's intentions to drain the swamp are equivalent to Obama's want to give the American people 100% Transparency. 

I agree with the idea you stated about tribalism, I'm learning not to be tribal myself.

There are a LOT of people that will not ever give the benefit of the doubt to Trump, Just as there are a LOT of people that will never give Obama the BOTD, even though his time is over and the results can be measured.  

Its not fair, or just, but in the end, it's the team you root for.

Does he make sense to me?  I think I understand what you are asking.

I do not agree with a lot of what he does, but I can see his points.  He is not the whole problem, nor is he the majority of the problem.  Trump is a symptom.

He'll be gone in a few years and we can go back to bitching about the unacceptable things that the next President does.

 

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6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I didn't read them.  I just know the tone.  Again - Trump could cure cancer and you would complain.

There isn't anything he could do, ever, that would improve your opinion.

To be fair though, Trump has stacked up so much credit in the ‘blatant arsehole’ column for his entire life that it would take something not far off curing cancer to actually warrant anyone changing their opinion of him. 
 

I mean, be honest, at this point Trump’s character is so set that it would have to be a genuinely massive road to Damascus conversion for him to change.

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5 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Does that make you the pot, or the kettle?

Neither. I read posts, articles, newsworthy bits in media, then research them for accuracy. It's currently impossible to accept reports at face value as well as dismissing them entirely and replace with unfounded assumptions.

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1 hour ago, normiss said:

Neither. I read posts, articles, newsworthy bits in media, then research them for accuracy. It's currently impossible to accept reports at face value as well as dismissing them entirely and replace with unfounded assumptions.

Impossible, yet, so many do.

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(edited)
2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

It's currently impossible to accept reports at face value as well as dismissing them entirely and replace with unfounded assumptions.

Your words.

If it is impossible, then how is it that so many do?

If it is impossible to accept the reports at face value, how is it that so many accomplish it?

TBH - That sentence is kinda difficult to decipher.

Edited by turtlespeed

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8 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

he whole - "Keep your plan and your doctor" was all a load of shite - they new it would be bad.  They knew it wouldn't lower costs by 2500 per family.  It was a lie, plain and simple.  BUT - in that line of thinking - probably no more of a lie than, say, when Trump said that he'd completely remove Obama care.  

It amazes me that anytime conservatives have to defend Trump's lies the standard fallback is STILL "if you like your plan you can keep your plan". Every single time. Never anything else.

The two examples you gave, could not be more different. At the time Obama made that infamous quote, the legislation was still in a form where it wasn't a lie. The GOP - true to their on-the-record mission statement of sabotaging anything Obama did regardless of benefit to the people - did everything they could to cripple the ACA and MADE it a lie.

Trump said he'd scrap Obamacare and replace it with something far far better, and repeatedly stated he would protect pre-existing conditions. He then signed in laws to strip those protections and had absolutely nothing in place to replace the ACA.

One of your dot points before was about how Obama wasn't bipartisan enough, then in this same thread you criticise him for the results of his bipartisan efforts - which the GOP used to try fucking him over.

Trump is an absolute dumpster-fire of a person, who has zero business being in the office he holds. I held off judgement when the election results came in on the HOPES that he might turn things around like you keep hinting he could - he can't. He's shown that repeatedly for the last 3 years.

Quit it with the "both-sides" false equivalence. It's horseshit and you know it.

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4 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

If you can show me how me how the Democrats are not doing the same sabotaging, I will.

Lets start with the wall.

A. There wasn’t a stated effort to block Trump no matter what

B. Maybe they were just holding him to his promise that Mexico was going to pay for it :halo:

Wendy P. 

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1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

If you can show me how me how the Democrats are not doing the same sabotaging, I will.

Lets start with the wall.

 

Why do you think that opposing a wall from coast to coast is equivalent to opposing everything somebody suggests, including providing health care to your society?

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The power to tax, and the power to decide where those taxes are spent rest with Congress. No such power is held by the executive branch. Now someone show me the legislation passed by Congress calling for a wall to be built.

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3 minutes ago, ryoder said:

The power to tax, and the power to decide where those taxes are spent rest with Congress. No such power is held by the executive branch. Now someone show me the legislation passed by Congress calling for a wall to be built.

Quite the opposite, but of course our Great Dictator vetoed it, then had to get funding by stealing it from more important projects.

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3 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Well there's also the very simple fact that the whole concept of a 'wall from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific' is utterly idiotic.

Just wait for The Wall II, keeping out all those pesky fucking Canadians! KIDDING, I wish I had the resources to become an EXPAT!  

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(edited)
6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

If you can show me how me how the Democrats are not doing the same sabotaging, I will.

Ok cool. Here's the Democrats not doing it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There you go. That's them not doing it. You see? Nothing happening.

Edited by jakee

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2 hours ago, jakee said:

Ok cool. Here's the Democrats not doing it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There you go. That's them not doing it. You see? Nothing happening.

Not accurate - that is them not being visible.

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4 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Not accurate - that is them not being visible.

I was ready to actually try engaging until you posted this. You're asking for proof of something not happening, with the preconception that it probably is (without any proof of your own).

The thing that frustrates me the most with you is that I know you're capable of rational debate and critical thinking, but for the most part you just take the lazy route of "neener-neener" lines that you know don't mean anything.

Stop being so fucking lazy.

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8 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

I was ready to actually try engaging until you posted this. You're asking for proof of something not happening, with the preconception that it probably is (without any proof of your own).

The thing that frustrates me the most with you is that I know you're capable of rational debate and critical thinking, but for the most part you just take the lazy route of "neener-neener" lines that you know don't mean anything.

Stop being so fucking lazy.

It is simple - Post an article that shows the willingness to cooperate.

I showed one where the they vow not to.

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