What are we going to talk about now?

[brenthutch 383]

Muller report over, no conviction on impeachment, football is finished, no current climate disasters, no recession, trade wars ending.

[gowlerk 1,902]

14 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Muller report over, no conviction on impeachment, football is finished, no current climate disasters, no recession, trade wars ending.

The upcoming election probably.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

The upcoming election probably.

Who's running?  I hadn't heard anything on it.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Muller report over, no conviction on impeachment, football is finished, no current climate disasters, no recession, trade wars ending.

Well, we could spend some time examining whether FAA funded public use airports are subsidizing socialist skydiving operations. I suppose if in addition to a very, very expensive hangar lease, the airport requires the jumpers to lease, at fair market value, a parachute landing area large enough to contain the jumpers (20+ acres anyway) and they paid a whole, whole lot of avgas tax, hosted a pancake breakfast or three, and so on there might be an argument the operation was carrying it's weight. But then there would need to be many other users paying their equal fair share including improvement and maintenance funds etc. etc so probably not.

Then there is ATC, right? South of the Pickerel Capital of the World and North of the Wall that keeps falling over jumpers don't pay a penny for the several hours a day of direct assistance many operations receive. Who pays for that? Ivanka? The collective? It ain't the gas tax on what a 182 burns, I'm guessing. What's your guess?

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

5 hours ago, gowlerk said:

The upcoming election probably.

Hi Ken,

Don't you mean 'election(s)?'

Lots of primaries on the horizon including Super Tuesday, 3 Mar 20.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[headoverheels 291]

11 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

 

Lots of primaries on the horizon including Super Tuesday, 3 Mar 20.

 

 

 

Yep, and since CA has seen fit to move their primary from June to March, I have to get off my duff and read the propositions and such before I leave town in under 2 weeks.  I'm registered R, but CA has open primaries, so I can vote for a D candidate.

 

[brenthutch 383]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Well, we could spend some time examining whether FAA funded public use airports are subsidizing socialist skydiving operations. I suppose if in addition to a very, very expensive hangar lease, the airport requires the jumpers to lease, at fair market value, a parachute landing area large enough to contain the jumpers (20+ acres anyway) and they paid a whole, whole lot of avgas tax, hosted a pancake breakfast or three, and so on there might be an argument the operation was carrying it's weight. But then there would need to be many other users paying their equal fair share including improvement and maintenance funds etc. etc so probably not.

Then there is ATC, right? South of the Pickerel Capital of the World and North of the Wall that keeps falling over jumpers don't pay a penny for the several hours a day of direct assistance many operations receive. Who pays for that? Ivanka? The collective? It ain't the gas tax on what a 182 burns, I'm guessing. What's your guess?

We rent hanger space at the market price, we pay rent for our office and the heated, airconditioned, padded and carpeted packing area. (The owner has a demolition business and we can pick up a lot of stuff from that)  Our landing area doubles as a tiedown for planes and a camping area that has always been maintained by the airport authority.  We are the cash cow for the airport.  There is no ATC other than NYC and since jump planes don't have to be vectored in, we are not a burden. BTW we buy more fuel that anyone else at the airport.

[timski 80]

Bee keeping, I'd really like to discuss bee keeping! Any fellow keepers lurking? 

I dove into it last spring for the 1st time, and honestly, it's one of the most rewarding things I've ever immersed myself in. I can be frequently heard saying "I don't ever see myself not keeping bees in the future"!    

[JoeWeber 2,294]

33 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

We rent hanger space at the market price, we pay rent for our office and the heated, airconditioned, padded and carpeted packing area. (The owner has a demolition business and we can pick up a lot of stuff from that)  Our landing area doubles as a tiedown for planes and a camping area that has always been maintained by the airport authority.  We are the cash cow for the airport.  There is no ATC other than NYC and since jump planes don't have to be vectored in, we are not a burden. BTW we buy more fuel that anyone else at the airport.

And how does your sunk cost fallacy factor into your analysis? You were a bank officer and you call a double 182 DZ a cash cow? How does the tiedown area factor into your subsidy?  How about the airport authority who maintains your camping area. Obviously you aren't a pilot or you'd know that you can never say there is no ATC. And so what that you buy a little avgas. 

But ignore all of that, and let's not make it all about you. You know you aren't paying the freight and that means you are subsidized like Elon Musk. Sorry brother but this one you won't win.

[brenthutch 383]

Bees are very cool.  My first substantial encounter with bees came in my freshman year at a branch campus of Penn State (Mont Alto).  There was a  small panic as there was a swarm of bees in front of an office/snack bar/hang out building.  They were thousands of them, piled inches deep on a big oak.  One of the forestry majors showed up with a smoker and a cardboard box, he lived off campus and had an empty beehive.  He grabbed some leaves, stuffed them into his smoker, lit them and charged headlong into this mass of bees.  Everyone thought he was crazy.  He held the box below the swarm with one hand and was pumping the smoker with the other.  He was covered in bees yet was not getting stung.  He was frustrated because he needed a third hand and shouted "can anybody please help me?" He obviously knew what he was doing so I volunteered to help.  He directed me to hold the box against the tree and proceeded to scoop large chunks of bees into the box.  Bees were swarming all around me and I could not see my arms from my elbows down as they were covered in bees.  All of a sudden he took the box from me and started to walk away (he saw the queen go in the box and knew the rest of the swarm would follow)  As he walked away, I said, covered in bees, "a little help please" he looked over his shoulder and said just jump up and down.  It worked.  I met up with him later and got an education on bees

Edited February 7, 2020 by brenthutch

[brenthutch 383]

43 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

And how does your sunk cost fallacy factor into your analysis? You were a bank officer and you call a double 182 DZ a cash cow? How does the tiedown area factor into your subsidy?  How about the airport authority who maintains your camping area. Obviously you aren't a pilot or you'd know that you can never say there is no ATC. And so what that you buy a little avgas. 

But ignore all of that, and let's not make it all about you. You know you aren't paying the freight and that means you are subsidized like Elon Musk. Sorry brother but this one you won't win.

The airport has been there since 1964 (a great year I might add) and the grass has been mowed every year since.  We started operations about 15 years ago and have added no additional burden on the airport authority.  We rented unused hanger space, we rented unused office space (we even tore out the wood paneling and put in drywall) we rented out unused space for our packing, video editing and rigging space.  We have cost the airport zero and have contributed tens of thousands.  As far as ATC, I think they were here before we started as well. When a grant was given to upgrade facilities, we did not qualify as we were a business, (and it would be socialist to give a business government money)  the T hangers that were rented out to private owners got cement floors, we got nothing. (BTW we buy more avgas than all of the other private pilots COMBINED) 

We are currently updating our website but go to skydivehappyvalley.com and check out the video visit (I'm the knucklehead using the hand-cam) 

Edited February 7, 2020 by brenthutch

[JoeWeber 2,294]

10 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

The airport has been there since 1964 (a great year I might add) and the grass has been mowed every year since.  We started operations about 15 years ago and have added no additional burden on the airport authority.  We rented unused hanger space, we rented unused office space (we even tore out the wood paneling and put in drywall) we rented out unused space for our packing, video editing and rigging space.  We have cost the airport zero and have contributed tens of thousands.  As far as ATC, I think they were here before we started as well. When a grant was given to upgrade facilities, we did not qualify as we were a business, (and it would be socialist to give a business government money)  the T hangers that were rented out to private owners got cement floors, we got nothing. (BTW we buy more avgas than all of the other private pilots COMBINED) 

We are currently updating our website but go to skydivehappyvalley.com and check out the video visit (I'm the knucklehead using the hand-cam) 

Let me help you out with a real world analogy. Say, for example, I buy a flash Caravan for $1.5M cash. You buy a $1.5M Caravan with a mortgage. So I have sunk costs and you have operating expenses. Now, I could, if I disregarded the investment cost and the opportunity cost of using that capital in some other profitable way, including paying down debt, lease my aircraft at a fraction of what you'd be able to offer. But I wouldn't because it would be dumb. No one except governments purchase assets and lease them for less than market value. You are being subsidized. 

[TriGirl 268]

52 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Bees are very cool.  My first substantial encounter with bees came in my freshman year at a branch campus of Penn State (Mont Alto). ...

Awesome story! Thanks for sharing.

[brenthutch 383]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

Let me help you out with a real world analogy. Say, for example, I buy a flash Caravan for $1.5M cash. You buy a $1.5M Caravan with a mortgage. So I have sunk costs and you have operating expenses. Now, I could, if I disregarded the investment cost and the opportunity cost of using that capital in some other profitable way, including paying down debt, lease my aircraft at a fraction of what you'd be able to offer. But I wouldn't because it would be dumb. No one except governments purchase assets and lease them for less than market value. You are being subsidized. 

Let me tighten up your analogy a bit. You own a facility you built a half a century ago.  It has several unrented spaces as nobody is interested in renting your old decrepit facility.  Along comes some guys and they are not only going to pay you much more than you could ever hope to get, they are going to fix it up (on their own dime). They will create a demand for maintenance which brings in another business to your facility and that draws even more interest. I agree someone is being subsidized, but it is the airport authority not SDHV.  

Just ask them, when Bill (the owner) broke his leg on the last jump of the season, he contemplated closing. He was lobbied by the airport authority, the county, and the local businesses to remain open. I ask you, just who is subsidizing who?

[ryoder 1,380]

1 hour ago, timski said:

Bee keeping, I'd really like to discuss bee keeping! Any fellow keepers lurking? 

I dove into it last spring for the 1st time, and honestly, it's one of the most rewarding things I've ever immersed myself in. I can be frequently heard saying "I don't ever see myself not keeping bees in the future"!    

I used to know a girl in Boulder who not only kept bees, but also gave classes in bee-keeping.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

3 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Let me tighten up your analogy a bit. You own a facility you built a half a century ago.  It has several unrented spaces as nobody is interested in renting your old decrepit facility.  Along comes some guys and they are not only going to pay you much more than you could ever hope to get, they are going to fix it up (on their own dime). They will create a demand for maintenance which brings in another business to your facility and that draws even more interest. I agree someone is being subsidized, but it is the airport authority not SDHV.  

Just ask them, when Bill (the owner) broke his leg on the last jump of the season, he contemplated closing. He was lobbied by the airport authority, the county, and the local businesses to remain open. I ask you, just who is subsidizing who?

You are being subsidized. You are benefitting from infrastructure paid for by the government for some reason that did not envision you. Get real, Brent, you are on the tit. There's no shame it that anymore than when you spend your food stamps. It's just how we all help each other.

[brenthutch 383]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You are being subsidized. You are benefitting from infrastructure paid for by the government for some reason that did not envision you. Get real, Brent, you are on the tit. There's no shame it that anymore than when you spend your food stamps. It's just how we all help each other.

Joe, when you give more than you take, you are NOT being subsidized.  You are the subsidizer.

[gowlerk 1,902]

1 hour ago, timski said:

Bee keeping, I'd really like to discuss bee keeping! Any fellow keepers lurking? 

I dove into it last spring for the 1st time, and honestly, it's one of the most rewarding things I've ever immersed myself in. I can be frequently heard saying "I don't ever see myself not keeping bees in the future"!    

Bees are a great topic for the Bonfire. Unless you are planning some kind of attack killer bee colony maybe not here in SC.

[gowlerk 1,902]

40 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

 No one except governments purchase assets and lease them for less than market value. You are being subsidized. 

 

This would be the crux of the matter right there.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Joe, when you give more than you take, you are NOT being subsidized.  You are the subsidizer.

Brent, then why be a chump? Go buy your own airport and bank the savings?

The reality is you are not counting all you get for free. For example, do you lease a specified area on the airport for your jumpers? Is it large enough to guarantee they will always land in? Are you paying local market value for that landing area?

[brenthutch 383]

5 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Bees are a great topic for the Bonfire. Unless you are planning some kind of attack killer bee colony maybe not here in SC.

There is no topic that cannot devolve quickly into a SC only category 

[gowlerk 1,902]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

Brent, then why be a chump? Go buy your own airport and bank the savings?

The reality is you are not counting all you get for free. For example, do you lease a specified area on the airport for your jumpers? Is it large enough to guarantee they will always land in? Are you paying local market value for that landing area?

That airport in that beautiful valley is surrounded by productive farm land. It's not just your operation, it's general aviation that is subsidized. Along with you.

[brenthutch 383]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Brent, then why be a chump? Go buy your own airport and bank the savings?

Because we are gracious capitalists and willingly contribute back to the community.  

[brenthutch 383]

6 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

That airport in that beautiful valley is surrounded by productive farm land. It's not just your operation, it's general aviation that is subsidized. Along with you.

Not only productive farmland, but productive Amish farmland.  Farmer McNasty will never get mad at you for a reserve handle f**king up his million dollar combine.  

[JoeWeber 2,294]

47 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Because we are gracious capitalists and willingly contribute back to the community.  

Be it Highways, Internet, Health Care, Police and Fire or Airports, such is the ardent hope of governments everywhere. You are welcome, comrade.