Is religion a form of mental illness?

[JoeWeber 2,298]

On 1/28/2020 at 9:58 AM, Coreece said:

What prompts these nominous feelings?  Is it perhaps reading or hearing about the beliefs of others or is it something inherently within us, or perhaps even beyond us and the natural world?

So begins the strawman argument. The feelings are not of necessity numinous, having strong religious and spiritual quality, by simply your say so. Although, if your argument is that religious feelings are somewhat akin to the creeped out feelings one gets watching horror shows I can sort of see your point.

[jakee 1,254]

35 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

It is exactly the claim I am making.

No it isn't. The way that societies evolved always involved religions because religions of one form or anither have always been present. That doesn't make them necessary. "It happened this way therefore it could never have happened any other way" is bad logic.

[brenthutch 383]

1 minute ago, jakee said:

No it isn't. The way that societies evolved always involved religions because religions of one form or anither have always been present. That doesn't make them necessary. "It happened this way therefore it could never have happened any other way" is bad logic.

I never said it could never happened any other way, I said, It hasn't happened any other way.  Big difference 

[jakee 1,254]

1 minute ago, brenthutch said:

I never said it could never happened any other way, I said, It hasn't happened any other way.  Big difference 

Why do you lie so much? Didn't religion teach you that was wrong?

"Without it we would still be a bunch of Neolithic warring tribes."

"You would still be wearing a loincloth and hunting with a spear if it weren’t for religion."

"I merely pointed out, without it we would still be wearing loincloths and killing our neighbors with spears."

 

[brenthutch 383]

All true, none of that is even controversial.  It is the arrival of an all seeing supernatural force* that "sees you when you're sleeping, knows when you're awake, knows if you've been bad or good so you better be good for goodness sake"  which facilitated the coexistence of societal groups larger than the family, clan, or tribe.  This is just boiler plate anthropology.

Look, I am not making the case that religiosity is better that secularity (although there are studies that show religious folks are happier and have a higher level of phycological well-being), I am just saying religion is part of the human condition and always has been. 

*this was manifested in a variety of way across the globe

Edited January 29, 2020 by brenthutch

[SethInMI 145]

7 minutes ago, jakee said:

Why do you lie so much? Didn't religion teach you that was wrong?

"Without it we would still be a bunch of Neolithic warring tribes."

you guys can both be right.
 

if the theory is that religion helped in organizing primitive societies into complex ones that became civilization, it could be true that:
1. without religion such societies would have eventually developed.
2. without religion such societies would have taken much much longer to develop, such that on earth they still would be undeveloped today.

[brenthutch 383]

5 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

you guys can both be right.
 

if the theory is that religion helped in organizing primitive societies into complex ones that became civilization, it could be true that:
1. without religion such societies would have eventually developed.
2. without religion such societies would have taken much much longer to develop, such that on earth they still would be undeveloped today.

3. without religion we would still be wearing loin cloths and killing our neighbors with spears

We will never know for sure because, in this case, a double blind study to prove one way or the other is a bit unpractical 

[jakee 1,254]

20 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

All true, none of that is even controversial. 

It really is. Controversial, not true.

 

And again, that means you're using bad logic and lying about it. Can't have it both ways.

 

Quote

It is the arrival of an all seeing supernatural force that "sees you when you're sleeping, knows when you're awake, knows if you've been bad or good so you better be good for goodness sake"  which facilitated the coexistence of societal groups larger than the family, clan, or tribe.  This is just boiler plate anthropology.

You must have an incredibly dim view of anthropology, because it's absolute claptrap. Exhibit a: War. It never stopped, it just got bigger. The only way religion is responsibe for stopping us from being tribes fighting with spears is if the religious leaders were the guys who invented nastier weapons than spears.

 

I mean for crying out loud, if you think belief in god scared us all into being nice to each other I don't even know what planet you're living on. Have you literally walked through your entire life with your eyes closed?

[jakee 1,254]

12 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

3. without religion we would still be wearing loin cloths and killing our neighbors with spears

We will never know for sure because, in this case, a double blind study to prove one way or the other is a bit unpractical 

Right, now we're wearing jeans and killing our neighbours with guns. Good thing religion sorted that out for us.

[brenthutch 383]

Who said anything about war?  I certainly didn't. The role of conflict on societal development deserves its own thread. 

[jakee 1,254]

46 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Who said anything about war?  I certainly didn't. The role of conflict on societal development deserves its own thread. 

"I hope you guys realize that religion played a pivotal role in the development of civilization.  Without it we would still be a bunch of Neolithic warring tribes."

 

Are you a goldfish?

[brenthutch 383]

20 minutes ago, jakee said:

"I hope you guys realize that religion played a pivotal role in the development of civilization.  Without it we would still be a bunch of Neolithic warring tribes."

 

Are you a goldfish?

Neolithic being the gist of my point.

Now we are sophisticated, modern, technologically advanced bunch of warring (sometimes)  nation states. (although it is killing fewer people than in the past https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts thanks to capitalism and global trade) 

Are you a guppy?

No need to answer, it was a rhetorical question.  

[billvon 2,396]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Exhibit a: War. It never stopped, it just got bigger. The only way religion is responsibe for stopping us from being tribes fighting with spears is if the religious leaders were the guys who invented nastier weapons than spears.

Yep.  Would be pretty silly to say that religion is keeping the Middle East peaceful.  (Although I imagine some will now try.)

[jakee 1,254]

3 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Neolithic being the gist of my point.

Are you a guppy?

No need to answer, it was a rhetorical question.  

Then you made it very badly. I asked you twice to explain your position before I made any other comment and you flat out refused. So how about in future if you want to make your point, don't deliberately fail to clearly express it. Sound fair?

 

Quote

Now we are sophisticated, modern, technologically advanced bunch of warring (sometimes)  nation states. 

Cool. And since it didn't stop people from killing other people, what did religion have to do with it?

[brenthutch 383]

5 minutes ago, jakee said:

Then you made it very badly. I asked you twice to explain your position before I made any other comment and you flat out refused. So how about in future if you want to make your point, don't deliberately fail to clearly express it. Sound fair?

 

Cool. And since it didn't stop people from killing other people, what did religion have to do with it?

Absolutely nothing, where in the hell did I ever say anything like that?  

[jakee 1,254]

4 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Absolutely nothing, where in the hell did I ever say anything like that?  

"I hope you guys realize that religion played a pivotal role in the development of civilization"

 

Honestly dude. What's wrong with you?

[JoeWeber 2,298]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Look, I am not making the case that religiosity is better that secularity (although there are studies that show religious folks are happier and have a higher level of phycological well-being)

Studies also show that stoned people are pretty happy, too. 

This is Joe Weber reporting from Happy Valley.

[kallend 1,623]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

You don't have to go back that far, a few decades is sufficient 

The 2016 election is sufficient. 

[brenthutch 383]

OK now I get it.  You seem to think that an advanced civilization is one that sits around the drum circle singing kumbaya.  No,  my point was that the evolvement of religion from one that worships rocks, frogs and trees to one that worships god/s was pivotal in the advancement of civilization.  If you want to take a look at a society that still worships frogs and trees I give you this peace loving tribe  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomami (the frogs never gave them ten commandments)

Edited January 30, 2020 by brenthutch

[brenthutch 383]

 

40 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Studies also show that stoned people are pretty happy, too. 

This is Joe Weber reporting from Happy Valley.

I'm pretty sure that substance abuse is demonstrably NOT a viable path to long term happiness and well-being

Edited January 30, 2020 by brenthutch

[kallend 1,623]

21 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

 

I'm pretty sure that substance abuse is demonstrably NOT a viable path to long term happiness and well-being

Neither is drinking cyanide laced Kool Aid, but some religion’s followers did just that. 

[JoeWeber 2,298]

49 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

 

I'm pretty sure that substance abuse is demonstrably NOT a viable path to long term happiness and well-being

Do you drink alcohol? Take Ibuprofen? Believe in the Easter Bunny?

[brenthutch 383]

We seem to be having psychological projection issues today.

 

[brenthutch 383]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Yep.  Would be pretty silly to say that religion is keeping the Middle East peaceful.  (Although I imagine some will now try.)

Pardon the expression but..., FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST WHEN DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT RELIGION BEING PEASEFULL?!?!?!?!  Islam, of course, is the notable exception as it IS the religion of peace.

[JoeWeber 2,298]

34 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

We seem to be having psychological projection issues today.

 

You seem to be having your normal avoidance issues.