Is religion a form of mental illness?

[brenthutch 383]

Just what am I avoiding? 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

29 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Just what am I avoiding? 

Nothing. You're good. Sleep tight.

[wmw999 2,114]

6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

You keep saying that. But not defending it. Most societies have some sort of religion. But they are just a way of groping for answers. And they have little in common with each other. The major determination of a religion’s success is the military success of the tribe who adheres to it.

I would agree with this 99%. Not 100% simply because the most successful military occasionally doesn’t win, and in the long run, farming societies generally grow bigger than hunter-gatherer societies. 

People want to understand stuff. Listen to any four-year-old and you’ll hear them starting to try to make sense of the world. We only think we’re farther along because we’ve explained so much more. I’ll bet that in another 200 years our “enlightenment” will seem childish in some fields. Unless, of course, our descendants are fighting some overwhelming problem and don’t really have much time or inclination to look back at us.

Wendy P. 

[billvon 2,379]

19 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

People want to understand stuff. Listen to any four-year-old and you’ll hear them starting to try to make sense of the world. 

Not to take this off track (heaven forbid) but yesterday our 5 year old was asking about the phases of matter.  At one point he asked if the air could be a liquid, and I told him it could if you made it cold enough - you get liquid nitrogen and oxygen.  You also get dry ice from CO2 (I explained) but that goes right to a solid.

He thought about that for a second.  "Well then how do they make it into those big ice blocks?"  And I realized I had no idea.  

Quote

I’ll bet that in another 200 years our “enlightenment” will seem childish in some fields. Unless, of course, our descendants are fighting some overwhelming problem and don’t really have much time or inclination to look back at us.

And - perhaps - wonder what the hell we were thinking.

[nigel99 143]

12 hours ago, Coreece said:

Well excuse me for taking him at his word, after all weren't you both lamenting about insulting people and then saying it was just a joke in the solstice thread?  I mean Nigel even went out of his way to dig up actual Bible quotes as a rebuke, and then he comes in here and does the exact same thing that he was complaining about there?  And I didn't even make a big deal out of it and press the issue like you would've.  I just subtly reminded him of his hypocrisy.

Let me spell it out for you. Making personal attacks or nasty comments and then digging yourself out by saying ‘I was only joking’ is what the bible verse I quoted refers to.

 I fully expect religious people to have a sense of humour. It was not a ‘fake’ news article, it was satire. It would be like calling The Onion fake news...

[jakee 1,254]

7 hours ago, brenthutch said:

OK now I get it.  You seem to think that an advanced civilization is one that sits around the drum circle singing kumbaya.  No,  my point was that the evolvement of religion from one that worships rocks, frogs and trees to one that worships god/s was pivotal in the advancement of civilization. 

Right, so why on earth did you just say religion had nothing to do with humanity's progress to being sophisticated, modern states when you're now back to saying it was pivotal? You are all over the place my man.

 

Now let's try again, why was religion pivotal in the advancement of civilisation?

 

Quote

If you want to take a look at a society that still worships frogs and trees I give you this peace loving tribe  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomami (the frogs never gave them ten commandments)

A) They're an isolated tribe in the jungle. Show me any tribe that lives in a similar location that independently developed advanced civilisation.

B) How are they different to other tribes? They fight? Everyone fights.

Edited January 30, 2020 by jakee

[jakee 1,254]

5 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Pardon the expression but..., FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST WHEN DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT RELIGION BEING PEASEFULL?!?!?!?! 

"If you want to take a look at a society that still worships frogs and trees I give you this peace loving tribe  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomami (the frogs never gave them ten commandments)"

 

If the implication is not that they would be more peaceful if they had a theistic religion, then what is it?

[nigel99 143]

2 minutes ago, jakee said:

"If you want to take a look at a society that still worships frogs and trees I give you this peace loving tribe  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomami (the frogs never gave them ten commandments)"

 

If the implication is not that they would be more peaceful if they had a theistic religion, then what is it?

Four legs good, two legs bad?

[brenthutch 383]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

"If you want to take a look at a society that still worships frogs and trees I give you this peace loving tribe  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomami (the frogs never gave them ten commandments)"

 

If the implication is not that they would be more peaceful if they had a theistic religion, then what is it?

Dude I am out.  Your lack of actual knowledge on the subject, your conflation of progress with peace, your preconceived notions, your failure to read links that underpin my point, and your obvious emotionality make it pointless to continue.  You wear your Atheisms with a religious fervor that would make a Jehovah's Witness blush.  Have a nice day. 

[RonD1120 58]

12 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Studies also show that stoned people are pretty happy, too. 

This is Joe Weber reporting from Happy Valley.

My $0.02

My spiritual journey has led me to a place where I have the peace of mind that surpasses all understanding.

I know who(se) I am. I know where I came from. I know where I am going.

I am not mentally ill. But, I am not normal by statistical analysis.

According to Dr Hawkins, only about 4% ever heard of spiritual enlightenment. Of that 4% only about 0.4% seek that path.

[turtlespeed 212]

20 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Make it then

 

Of course you are referring to statism, as practice by the atheist states of the Soviet Union and Mao's China.

NO - Actually I had the catholic church in mind - but thanks for helping prove my argument.

[turtlespeed 212]

15 hours ago, brenthutch said:

OK now I get it.  You seem to think that an advanced civilization is one that sits around the drum circle singing kumbaya.  No,  my point was that the evolvement of religion from one that worships rocks, frogs and trees to one that worships god/s was pivotal in the advancement of civilization.  If you want to take a look at a society that still worships frogs and trees I give you this peace loving tribe  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomami (the frogs never gave them ten commandments)

AHHHHH - I see - you want confirmation that what you said was correct. 

Then, yes, in our history, religion, and superstition was, at its most basic level, pivotal in creating the society we have now. 

 

That is correct in the same line of thinking as ice was pivotal in the history of the titanic.

And it has had about the same effect.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

My $0.02

My spiritual journey has led me to a place where I have the peace of mind that surpasses all understanding.

I know who(se) I am. I know where I came from. I know where I am going.

I am not mentally ill. But, I am not normal by statistical analysis.

According to Dr Hawkins, only about 4% ever heard of spiritual enlightenment. Of that 4% only about 0.4% seek that path.

So it's an amount of reality similar to Homeopathy. Interesting.

[turtlespeed 212]

19 hours ago, jakee said:

No, I've been quite consistent in pointing out hypocrisy over the years. If you wanted to look back you'll see I've said the same thing many times - I don't care if people are polite or insulting, but I can't stand the ones who moan and moan about courtesy from others and then come out and throw insults.

 

Pretty much every post Coreece has made over the last 6 months has been moaning about (often imagined) bigotry from supposed anti-christians, then he comes out and says something clearly bigoted. I don't see why it's difficult for either of you to grasp the reason I pointed it out.

I must have missed the bigotry you speak of.

I have looked back - but I just don't see it.

[jakee 1,254]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Dude I am out.  

You were never in. You have nothing to say. Not only have you flatly refuses to support your argument, you’ve failed to even make clear what it is. Almost every post you have made has been an absolute contradiction of the one preceding it. It’s an almost textbook example of someone attempting to win an argument by baffling with bullshit. 

[jakee 1,254]

17 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

I must have missed the bigotry you speak of.

I have looked back - but I just don't see it.

He said atheists either suppress their humanity or lack it all together. I think the definition of humanity makes it pretty clear that’s at least as bigoted and as reminiscent of the thought processes that lead to atrocities as most of the stuff he winges about. 

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

He said atheists either suppress their humanity or lack it all together. I think the definition of humanity makes it pretty clear that’s at least as bigoted and as reminiscent of the thought processes that lead to atrocities as most of the stuff he winges about. 

I think you are looking at it from only one singular point of view.

The way I understand what he was trying to put forth, is that, to him, belief in a deity is human nature.

I think it is truly inconceivable to him that a human wouldn't possess that instinct.  It makes no logical sense to him. (Just my take)

So, in his view, you are denying your nature, as opposed to your humanity, per se.

 

I'm not saying any of the three of us can't get contemptuous, at times, but I don't think he was being a bigot.

I can understand this because I was brought up to think along those lines.

I had to teach myself how to let myself understand and accept alternatives.

 

 

[billvon 2,379]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

AHHHHH - I see - you want confirmation that what you said was correct. 

Then, yes, in our history, religion, and superstition was, at its most basic level, pivotal in creating the society we have now. 

As was malaria, bubonic plague and rape.  And although those things were pivotal millennia ago, it's often a good idea to reconsider if those things are worthwhile nowadays.

[turtlespeed 212]

Just now, billvon said:

As was malaria, bubonic plague and rape.  And although those things were pivotal millennia ago, it's often a good idea to reconsider if those things are worthwhile nowadays.

Exactly.

For that matter - Godless dinosaurs were pivotal in creating modern society.

Or did Satan bury all those bones in the ground because he is the great deceiver?

[Coreece 189]

21 hours ago, jakee said:

On 1/29/2020 at 10:10 AM, Coreece said:

Most of the bigoted criticism that I've attacked lately comes from Nigel that thinks religion is just a crutch for people of faith that can't possibly fathom a scary and chaotic world in which they just end up "fucking up people's heads."  To him they are mentally ill and can't possibly instill values because they lie to their children.  He says many are just reformed drug addicts and alcoholics that are now just hooked on the drug of religion.

I don't think all of that is an accurate representation of what he said.

Actually it's a very accurate paraphrase of what he said - practically verbatim, but feel free to split hairs if you want.

 

21 hours ago, jakee said:

Quote

One of the troubling things for me is that that last part especially has historically been viewed as a fundamental principle of not only communism but soviet atheists and their militant institutions - and we all know how that turned out - so excuse me if I take exception with that.  

Right, and Christians viewing people who don't share the same religion (or any religion) as without humanity has resulted in its fair share of atrocities too.

See that's your problem, you continue to go out of your way to be offended by your own imagined bigotry of others, the same thing you're trying to accuse me of.

I never said that they were without humanity, and tho I admitted that I can see how you could've been offended by the phasing, I subsequently clarified what I was talking about.  But even before that clarification, you should've already known what I was talking about because I outlined it in the first post that you selectively quoted.  

I mean seriously dude, you went out of your way to be offended the second time because I reiterated your sentiment  of not having those numinous, supernatural emotions to suppress in the first place.

And even if you did suppress those feelings or other emotions, how is that equal to being without humanity?  I mean the ability to suppress positive or negative emotions is probably one of the most important aspects of what actually makes us human.

[Coreece 189]

21 hours ago, jakee said:

I've been quite consistent in pointing out hypocrisy over the years.

Except your own and that of others that share a similar world view to yours.

 

21 hours ago, jakee said:

Pretty much every post Coreece has made over the last 6 months has been moaning about (often imagined) bigotry from supposed anti-christians, then he comes out and says something clearly bigoted.

Ya, it figures you'd think that suggesting some atheists are suppressing numinous emotions based on their own admission is clearly bigoted, and that Nigel suggesting that religious people are mentally ill based on the musings of his aunt Nelly, (or whatever her name is) is imagined bigotry.  (along with all the other clearly bigoted shit he's said over the last several months that I was responding to.)

[Coreece 189]

13 hours ago, nigel99 said:

On 1/29/2020 at 10:10 AM, Coreece said:

Well excuse me for taking him at his word, after all weren't you both lamenting about insulting people and then saying it was just a joke in the solstice thread?  I mean Nigel even went out of his way to dig up actual Bible quotes as a rebuke, and then he comes in here and does the exact same thing that he was complaining about there?  And I didn't even make a big deal out of it and press the issue like you would've.  I just subtly reminded him of his hypocrisy.

Let me spell it out for you. Making personal attacks or nasty comments and then digging yourself out by saying ‘I was only joking’ is what the bible verse I quoted refers to.

You only believe that because that's what your dad told you to keep your siblings from calling each other names.  But you're not a child anymore and can clearly reads that it refers to trying to pass off deceit or trickery as being only a joke.

But even if we use your interpretation, it's exactly what you did here by making the nasty comments about religious people being mentally ill and then trying to trick us with your fake article and admitting that you were just joking.   Are you going to own that or just blame it on Aunt Nelly?

And btw, you never answered my question which was really the point I was trying to get at.  There are a growing number of Atheists starting to go to Atheists Churches, some even pray regularly and have nominous feeling brought about by nature or distress.  Do you think they are mentally ill as well, or is it just those that you don't like?

[Coreece 189]

21 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

On 1/28/2020 at 8:58 AM, Coreece said:

What prompts these nominous feelings?  Is it perhaps reading or hearing about the beliefs of others or is it something inherently within us, or perhaps even beyond us and the natural world?

So begins the strawman argument. The feelings are not of necessity numinous, having strong religious and spiritual quality, by simply your say so.

Again, this is not simply my say so.  I am not making this stuff up.   I mean I just learned that word numinous from an article about atheists that expressed having numinous feeling brought about by nature.  Everything I've been saying is based on numerous articles and scientific studies, not Nigel's aunt Nelly and some fake article about Iceland - and there is plenty of info out there for anybody interested.  Here are some tags:

# Human Faith Predisposition  -  # Atheist Churches -  # Praying Atheist

 

And just for your amusement:

Edited January 30, 2020 by Coreece

[winsor 185]

On 1/18/2020 at 9:59 PM, nigel99 said:

My aunt has a theory or saying that religion is a mental illness.

I know that if a grown adult believed in Santa or the Easter Bunny etc there would be serious concerns or doubts over their sanity. Why then is belief in a mystical or magical being any different?

To understand religion one should study epidemiology.

Some mental malware is more virulent than others, and some is downright weaponized.

The whole idea that existence as we appear to know it is the result of some entity that is orders of magnitude more massive and complex than what we perceive, yet is completely undetectable, is patent nonsense.  That which is submitted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

I find Islam is a prime example of religion as a form of psychosis.  The Cult of the Illiterate Pervert Psychopath could hardly be a more transparent mechanism for the exercise of power.

Christianity, the Cult of the Magic Jewish Zombie, is not much (if any) better - it is an example of Truth by Committee at its finest.  A dispassionate review of its history reveals it to be as bad as it gets without imploding.

Mormon and Scientology are definitive, verifiable bullshit, yet they have an amazing number of adherents.  The fact that it is all tripe is irrelevant.

That religion  meets any general criteria for mental illness is hardly a theory.  It is a demonstrable fact.

 

 

BSBD,

Winsor

 

[ryoder 1,380]

28 minutes ago, winsor said:

That which is submitted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

 

aka Hitchens's Razor