Is religion a form of mental illness?

[jakee 1,254]

25 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Just pointing out the irony of characterizing one of the mechanisms which made civilization possible

Explanation being?

[brenthutch 383]

Sorry, I don’t have time to teach an anthropology course today.  

[gowlerk 1,904]

31 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Sorry, I don’t have time to teach an anthropology course today.  

No, you only have time to make unproven statements and assumptions. That is why I rarely have time to challenge you.

[brenthutch 383]

The role of religion in the formation, organization and development of early civilizations is undisputed. (This forum being the notable exception)

[Coreece 190]

7 hours ago, jakee said:

How has it run its course if you're still here defending your contemptuous insults? Come on dude, your whole MO is to cry wolf about bigotry every time any aspect of religion is remotely criticised

Most of the bigoted criticism that I've attacked lately comes from Nigel that thinks religion is just a crutch for people of faith that can't possibly fathom a scary and chaotic world in which they just end up "fucking up people's heads."  To him they are mentally ill and can't possibly instill values because they lie to their children.  He says many are just reformed drug addicts and alcoholics that are now just hooked on the drug of religion.

One of the troubling things for me is that that last part especially has historically been viewed as a fundamental principle of not only communism but soviet atheists and their militant institutions - and we all know how that turned out - so excuse me if I take exception with that.  

Nobody here would tolerate such bigoted statements if it were against any other protected class, yet not only haven't you spoken out against such bigotry, you've practically defended him through it all, and now you want to take me to task for something that I've already admitted and subsequently clarified?  I mean damn dude, I think Turtle was actually right about you.

 

7 hours ago, jakee said:

I wasn't fooled by that article, you were. So now we've got two examples of you jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions.

Well excuse me for taking him at his word, after all weren't you both lamenting about insulting people and then saying it was just a joke in the solstice thread?  I mean Nigel even went out of his way to dig up actual Bible quotes as a rebuke, and then he comes in here and does the exact same thing that he was complaining about there?  And I didn't even make a big deal out of it and press the issue like you would've.  I just subtly reminded him of his hypocrisy.

And you can talk about unsubstantiated claims all you want, but at least my opinion is based on real articles and studies about the human predisposition toward faith - and there is a lot more where that came from.  What do you guys have, some anecdote from Nigel's aunt and a fake article about Iceland?

[SethInMI 145]

37 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

The role of religion in the formation, organization and development of early civilizations is undisputed. (This forum being the notable exception)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religion#Advantages_of_religion

I am not disputing this, but I don't think it is very relevant or important.

[brenthutch 383]

It's the topic of the thread.  Everyone wants to denigrate religion, even suggesting it is a mental illness.  I merely pointed out, without it we would still be wearing loincloths and killing our neighbors with spears.

[normiss 622]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

The role of religion in the formation, organization and development of early civilizations is undisputed. (This forum being the notable exception)

Odd, I thought waterways, food, resources, understanding of crop production, protection/safety, and environment did that.

Religion just controlled those with no education or understanding.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 minutes ago, normiss said:

Odd, I thought waterways, food, resources, understanding of crop production, protection/safety, and environment did that.

Religion just controlled those with no education or understanding.

Well, there are some pretty good indications that it helped society develop beyond tribal groups.

It offered a means of control, without anyone doing the controlling being 'responsible' (Hey, don't blame me because you can't eat bacon, I'm just the chief. God said you can't eat it). In a time when food safety was not understood at all, having those religious restrictions were pretty important.

It gave the society a means of limiting selfish behaviors that were detrimental to the society, while encouraging behaviors that were beneficial to the society, while not being beneficial to the individual. Monogamy, murder, theft, those 'commandment' things. 

And, as was noted, it gave answers to questions that weren't answerable (where did we come from? being the biggest). And comfort and assurances about what happens 'next' (going to heaven and seeing all your dead relatives & friends). 

The fact that every society came up with some form of religion tells how powerful & necessary those 'needs' are.
The fact that every independent society came up with a different origin story, a different after death experience and for that matter, a different God is a strong suggestion that it was all just made up by some dude. 

[brenthutch 383]

30 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

 

The fact that every independent society came up with an origin story, an after death experience and for that matter, a God is a strong suggestion that it was not just a mental illness.

FIFY

[SethInMI 145]

19 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

It's the topic of the thread.  Everyone wants to denigrate religion, even suggesting it is a mental illness.  I merely pointed out, without it we would still be wearing loincloths and killing our neighbors with spears.

ok, but if you went back to those days, you would think the people were mentally ill, there was so much superstition and practices that we would consider crazy. 

 

[brenthutch 383]

You don't have to go back that far, a few decades is sufficient 

[turtlespeed 212]

11 hours ago, jakee said:

How has it run its course if you're still here defending your contemptuous insults?

 

BWAHAHAHHAA - Jakee - complaining about someone defending their contempt and insults.

 

THAT's RICH!!

11 hours ago, jakee said:

Looks like you're making a late run for that 2020 Irony Award, eh?

Did you just project your self image?

[turtlespeed 212]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

The role of religion in the formation, organization and development of early civilizations is undisputed. (This forum being the notable exception)

As is the role of Invention. (Which was usually stymied by religion)

As is the role of War (Usually because of religion)

Not batting a high percentage unless you are going for - "Religion was a bad influence"

 

[turtlespeed 212]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

It's the topic of the thread.  Everyone wants to denigrate religion, even suggesting it is a mental illness.  I merely pointed out, without it we would still be wearing loincloths and killing our neighbors with spears.

With the extent that religion hindered progress, an argument for atheism being a larger contributor to getting out of loincloths has a stronger position.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

FIFY

No.  You didn't. 

One society came up with a form of monotheism, then killed and tortured people until they believed.

Under pain of death, a lot of people will tell you what you want to hear, even if they are going against what they believe in their core.

 

[brenthutch 383]

24 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

With the extent that religion hindered progress, an argument for atheism being a larger contributor to getting out of loincloths has a stronger position.

Make it then

 

22 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

No.  You didn't. 

One society came up with a form of monotheism, then killed and tortured people until they believed.

Under pain of death, a lot of people will tell you what you want to hear, even if they are going against what they believe in their core.

 

Of course you are referring to statism, as practice by the atheist states of the Soviet Union and Mao's China.

[jakee 1,254]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Sorry, I don’t have time to teach an anthropology course today.  

I'm constantly amazed at how you and Turtle find more and more creative ways to admit that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[jakee 1,254]

5 hours ago, brenthutch said:

The role of religion in the formation, organization and development of early civilizations is undisputed.

So? That's not the same thing as the claim you are making. 

[gowlerk 1,904]

5 hours ago, brenthutch said:

The role of religion in the formation, organization and development of early civilizations is undisputed. (This forum being the notable exception)

You keep saying that. But not defending it. Most societies have some sort of religion. But they are just a way of groping for answers. And they have little in common with each other. The major determination of a religion’s success is the military success of the tribe who adheres to it.

[jakee 1,254]

4 hours ago, Coreece said:

Most of the bigoted criticism that I've attacked lately comes from Nigel that thinks religion is just a crutch for people of faith that can't possibly fathom a scary and chaotic world in which they just end up "fucking up people's heads."  To him they are mentally ill and can't possibly instill values because they lie to their children.  He says many are just reformed drug addicts and alcoholics that are now just hooked on the drug of religion.

I don't think all of that is an accurate representation of what he said.

 

Quote

One of the troubling things for me is that that last part especially has historically been viewed as a fundamental principle of not only communism but soviet atheists and their militant institutions - and we all know how that turned out - so excuse me if I take exception with that.  

Right, and Christians viewing people who don't share the same religion (or any religion) as without humanity has resulted in its fair share of atrocities too. Surely your own argument is proving that I'm right to take you to task about it?

 

Quote

Nobody here would tolerate such bigoted statements if it were against any other protected class, yet not only haven't you spoken out against such bigotry, you've practically defended him through it all, and now you want to take me to task for something that I've already admitted and subsequently clarified?

I've defended him when you've accused him of saying things he hasn't said. I'm taking you to task because you're being a massive hypocrite. I really don't care about you saying obviously stupid things about the whole atheist population, but I kinda don't want to let you get away with being that two faced without pointing it out.

Quote

Well excuse me for taking him at his word, after all weren't you both lamenting about insulting people and then saying it was just a joke in the solstice thread?  I mean Nigel even went out of his way to dig up actual Bible quotes as a rebuke, and then he comes in here and does the exact same thing that he was complaining about there? 

Hang on, that was you again, wasn't it? You said you called them frigid bigots because it was funny.

Quote

And you can talk about unsubstantiated claims all you want, but at least my opinion is based on real articles and studies about the human predisposition toward faith - and there is a lot more where that came from.  What do you guys have, some anecdote from Nigel's aunt and a fake article about Iceland?

What does the article about Iceland have to do with my position? You've tried to tie it to me twice now and I really don't get why you're having such a hard time remembering that you engaged with it, not me.

[jakee 1,254]

4 hours ago, brenthutch said:

I merely pointed out, without it we would still be wearing loincloths and killing our neighbors with spears.

What makes you think that?

 

I mean seriously, it's the most hilariously clueless argument I've ever heard. In pretty much every civilisation around the world people only stopped killing their neighbours with spears when they invented better weapons to kill people with than spears. Well, every civilisation except the ones that were invaded and destroyed by the ones who invented better weapons first.

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

Did you just project your self image?

No, I've been quite consistent in pointing out hypocrisy over the years. If you wanted to look back you'll see I've said the same thing many times - I don't care if people are polite or insulting, but I can't stand the ones who moan and moan about courtesy from others and then come out and throw insults.

 

Pretty much every post Coreece has made over the last 6 months has been moaning about (often imagined) bigotry from supposed anti-christians, then he comes out and says something clearly bigoted. I don't see why it's difficult for either of you to grasp the reason I pointed it out.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

The role of religion in the formation, organization and development of early civilizations is undisputed. (This forum being the notable exception)

The role of superstition, and the use of it to control populations ignorant of the workings of the natural world, in the formation, organization and development of early civilizations is undisputed. (This forum being a prime example) 

Care to call bullshit, sir?

 

[brenthutch 383]

53 minutes ago, jakee said:

So? That's not the same thing as the claim you are making. 

It is exactly the claim I am making.