Q

[Coreece 190]

4 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

12 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Phil if you're going to go on and on about evangelicals, then it might help to know about what they believe.  Evangelicals are diametrically opposed to the idea of a mass.

Well you're possibly right.

I know Lutherans and Anglicans call it a mass or liturgy, but I doubt the theology/doctrine behind it is similar to that of Catholics.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

43 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

Sounds good to me.

Nay, nay! "Blow the trumpet in Zion, Zion."

Lyrics

They rush on the city, they run on the wall
Great is the army that carries out His word
They rush on the city, they run on the wall
Great is the army that carries out His word

The Lord utters His voice before His army
The Lord utters His voice before His army

They rush on the city, they run on the wall
Great is the army that carries out His word
They rush on the city, they run on the wall
Great is the army that carries out His word

The Lord utters His voice before His army
The Lord utters His voice before His army

Blow the trumpet in Zion, Zion
Sound the alarm in My Holy mountain!
Blow the trumpet in Zion, Zion
Sound the alarm!

Blow the trumpet in Zion, Zion
Sound the alarm in my Holy mountain!
Blow the trumpet in Zion, Zion
Sound the alarm!

Blow the trumpet in Zion, Zion
Sound the alarm in my Holy mountain!
Blow the trumpet in Zion, Zion

Sound the alarm!
Sound the alarm!

Sound the alarm!

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere

Their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head, I wanna drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow

And I find it kinda funny
I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very mad world, mad world

Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday
And I feel the way that every child should
Sit and listen, sit and listen

Went to school and I was very nervous
No one knew me, no one knew me
Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson
Look right through me, look right through me

And I find it kinda funny
I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very mad world, mad world

Enlarging your world
Mad world

-Tears for Fears

[gowlerk 1,911]

31 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I know Lutherans and Anglicans call it a mass or liturgy, but I doubt the theology/doctrine behind it is similar to that of Catholics.

Anglicans are wanna be Catholics. They do "Holy Communion" which is Mass lite. Complete with wine and wafers representing the blood and body of the Holy Lamb of God. Henry the 8th did not want to stray too far it seems.

I was christened Anglican but never confirmed. I don't know just what the followers of Luther decided upon when they broke away from the evil that is the Catholic Church.

Edited August 20, 2020 by gowlerk

[wmw999 2,121]

I was raised Lutheran (ELCA). We never called it mass. It’s part of respect to use terms people use for themselves, rather than assigning ones own. 

Wendy P. 

[Coreece 190]

11 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

38 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I know Lutherans and Anglicans call it a mass or liturgy, but I doubt the theology/doctrine behind it is similar to that of Catholics.

Anglicans are wanna be Catholics. They do "Holy Communion" which is Mass lite. Complete with wine and wafers representing the blood and body of the Holy Lamb of God. Henry the 8th did not want to stray too far it seems.

Most evangelicals do something similar - they just don't believe the Catholic doctrine that effectively says they're continually sacrificing Christ over and over again for the propitiation of sin.  That would run contrary to scripture that states He died once, for all. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Coreece

[gowlerk 1,911]

2 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Most evangelicals do something similar - they just don't believe the Catholic doctrine that effectively says they're continually sacrificing Christ over and over again for the propitiation of sin.  That would run contrary to scripture that states He died once, for all. 

Theology and the arguing over it is mind numbing. Every religion has branches that do it, and people sometimes fight wars over it. The stupidity of dividing the human world into camps by what their leaders tell them about magical thinking boggles the mind if you really take the time to consider it. But then again I guess we need something for our tribes to fight over.

[Coreece 190]

8 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

16 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Most evangelicals do something similar - they just don't believe the Catholic doctrine that effectively says they're continually sacrificing Christ over and over again for the propitiation of sin.  That would run contrary to scripture that states He died once, for all. 

Theology and the arguing over it is mind numbing. Every religion has branches that do it, and people sometimes fight wars over it. The stupidity of dividing the human world into camps by what their leaders tell them about magical thinking boggles the mind if you really take the time to consider it. But then again I guess we need something for our tribes to fight over.

That one is just particularly offensive, along with their indulgences which in part sparked the reformation.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Anglicans are wanna be Catholics. They do "Holy Communion" which is Mass lite. Complete with wine and wafers representing the blood and body of the Holy Lamb of God. Henry the 8th did not want to stray too far it seems.

I was christened Anglican but never confirmed. I don't know just what the followers of Luther decided upon when they broke away from the evil that is the Catholic Church.

I don't know of any Christian religions that don't do the holy communion thing.

Some more intensely than others - but still.   

[olofscience 420]

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

That one is just particularly offensive, along with their indulgences which in part sparked the reformation.

And conservatives think people are easily offended these days...

People eating unleavened bread, drinking wine and saying words about an imaginary being? Sigh...

[Coreece 190]

37 minutes ago, olofscience said:

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

That one is just particularly offensive, along with their indulgences which in part sparked the reformation.

And conservatives think people are easily offended these days...

People eating unleavened bread, drinking wine and saying words about an imaginary being? Sigh...

So you don't think it's offensive to tell people they have to give money in order for their dead loved one to get into heaven?

Sigh. . .

[wmw999 2,121]

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

That one is just particularly offensive, along with their indulgences which in part sparked the reformation.

I’m not sure what you find particularly offensive. The “repeated sacrifice?” Many Protestants say similar things, “the body of Christ” and “the blood of Christ.” What others believe is not offensive to me as a rule; what they do can be. 
Wendy P. 

[SkyDekker 1,122]

6 minutes ago, Coreece said:

So you don't think it's offensive to tell people they have to give money in order for their dead loved one to get into heaven?

Sigh. . .

Don't find it any less offensive than the whole Prosperity theology.

What I find more offensive than all of that, considering the above in the end is people making their own decisions, is forcing detained Muslims to eat pork.

[gowlerk 1,911]

26 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I’m not sure what you find particularly offensive. The “repeated sacrifice?” Many Protestants say similar things, “the body of Christ” and “the blood of Christ.” What others believe is not offensive to me as a rule; what they do can be. 
Wendy P. 

And.....completely ignoring and or missing my central point. Which is that people fighting over theology is evil incarnate. No one set of lies is any more offensive to me than the others. I would also add that making your living selling these lies is just as bad.

Edited August 20, 2020 by gowlerk

[olofscience 420]

41 minutes ago, Coreece said:

So you don't think it's offensive to tell people they have to give money in order for their dead loved one to get into heaven?

Oh yeah it is, because heaven is a fictitious concept.

But my comment was about you finding the catholic mass offensive. It doesn't matter though.

[Coreece 190]

21 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

And.....completely ignoring and or missing my central point. Which is that people fighting over theology is evil incarnate.

People can have a discussion or call out inconsistencies without fighting or killing each other over it.  I mean you guys can call out religious bullshit and it's ok, but when we do it it's evil incarnate?  C'mon man.  The Catholic church considers it the universal church - I'm just trying to work toward a more universal understanding.

 

48 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

That one is just particularly offensive, along with their indulgences which in part sparked the reformation.

I’m not sure what you find particularly offensive. The “repeated sacrifice?” Many Protestants say similar things, “the body of Christ” and “the blood of Christ.”

I wrote a detailed post on the differences awhile back:

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/249277-what-good-have-the-vatican-done-for-the-people%3F/?do=findComment&comment=3269827

I should add that I've learned that most Catholics are unaware or don't believe this particular part of Catholic doctrine anyway. 

 

Now the idea of the catholic mass is tied to the idea of indulgences, tho today they come in the form of having a mass for your dead loved one in order to get them out of purgatory.  But again, most Catholics don't really believe all that and just see it as a memorial service.  No problem with that.

 

41 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

51 minutes ago, Coreece said:

So you don't think it's offensive to tell people they have to give money in order for their dead loved one to get into heaven?

Sigh. . .

Don't find it any less offensive than the whole Prosperity theology.

I agree, tho I think it's still a bit more offensive when they try to nickel and dime you even after you're dead.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Coreece

[gowlerk 1,911]

1 minute ago, Coreece said:

I should add that I've learned that most Catholics are unaware or don't believe this particular part of Catholic doctrine anyway. 

The institution of the "Mother Church" has merely had more time than most to acquire and abuse its power and become corrupt. The central idea of a "spiritual leadership" that can help you to have immortality is an ultimate scam. And whether it is the sale of indulgences or a requirement of tithing or whatever it is still a scam. Jesus, Hubbard, Mohamed, Smith, or any of the many many scam artists who have latched onto their legacy are all the same. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

10 minutes ago, Coreece said:

The Catholic church considers it the universal church

Hi Coreece,

IMO it considers itself the only church.

YMMV,

Jerry Baumchen

[olofscience 420]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

"Mother Church" has merely had more time than most to acquire and abuse its power and become corrupt

Hit the nail right on the head.

The evangelists are hot on their heels though with God telling them to buy private jets and whatnot.

[Coreece 190]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

And whether it is the sale of indulgences or a requirement of tithing or whatever it is still a scam.

I agree, that's why the NT is clear that it's not a requirement.  In the OT, tithes back then were just as important as taxes today.

[gowlerk 1,911]

11 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I agree, that's why the NT is clear that it's not a requirement.  In the OT, tithes back then were just as important as taxes today.

I'm not sure why you are missing the point. Probably because your view of religion is favourable as long as the religion comports with your beliefs. They are all scams because they all promise things that they have no reasonable expectation of being able to deliver. And they all have leaders who are in it for money, power, or status. Or some combination of the three. From the tribal Shaman to the Bishop of Rome.

[Coreece 190]

10 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

26 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I agree, that's why the NT is clear that it's not a requirement.  In the OT, tithes back then were just as important as taxes today.

I'm not sure why you are missing the point. Probably because your view of religion is favourable as long as the religion comports with your beliefs. They are all scams because they all promise things that they have no reasonable expectation of being able to deliver.

Yes I believe people use tithing to scam on others.  Others believe their tithes or whatever they give are used to maintain a church where they can fellowship with others and that's important to them, it's a reasonable expectation - nothing wrong with that.  Personal tithing or giving doesn't even have to go to a church.  And if someone is giving money just because they expect something in return, then I think they're the ones missing the point.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Coreece

[gowlerk 1,911]

1 minute ago, Coreece said:

Yes I believe people use tithing to scam on others.  Others believe their tithes or whatever they give are use to maintain a church where they can fellowship with others and that's important to them it's a reasonable expectation - nothing wrong with that.  Personal tithing or giving doesn't even have to go to a church.  And if someone is giving money just because they expect something in return, then I think they're the ones missing the point.

How about them Dodgers? They are just tearing it up?

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

57 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Yes I believe people use tithing to scam on others.

Hi Coreece,

As do I:  'Falwell’s use of yacht comes under scrutiny'

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/20/falwells-yacht-use-under-scrutiny-399424

Jerry Baumchen

[nigel99 143]

5 hours ago, Coreece said:

Yes I believe people use tithing to scam on others.  Others believe their tithes or whatever they give are used to maintain a church where they can fellowship with others and that's important to them, it's a reasonable expectation - nothing wrong with that.  Personal tithing or giving doesn't even have to go to a church.  And if someone is giving money just because they expect something in return, then I think they're the ones missing the point.

I agree with you on the principle of tithing. At one point and I’m sure in some areas it is to keep a roof over the full time religious people’s heads and maintenance of basic infrastructure. I think the monks tend to hold these values and all religions have these altruistic individuals (including Christians)

I grew up surrounded by the prosperity cult though, and was far from that. Church leaders accumulated immense wealth by exploiting the poor and vulnerable on the promise that they too would be blessed by giving. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

2 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Church leaders accumulated immense wealth by exploiting the poor and vulnerable on the promise that they too would be blessed by giving. 

Hi Nigel,

I think it is ' . . . accumulate immense wealth . . . '

No past tense about it.

Jerry Baumchen