airdvr 197 #51 January 4, 2020 Progressives always try to take a rational approach to the ME. You just forget that you aren't dealing with rational folks over there. What do you think we should do about a "government official" (I use that term lightly) like this guy? We know he's directly responsible for hundreds of killings, and indirectly for thousands. Ask him to sit down for tea. FFS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,905 #52 January 4, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, airdvr said: Progressives always try to take a rational approach to the ME. And irrationality has always worked in the past? I suppose in a way it has. At this time the Strait of Hormuz is still open for the tankers to pass, the House of Saud is still more or less in control of the largest oil fields and still selling their soul to the west. There is no united Arabia, the tribes are still divided. And most importantly Persia has not been able to reform anything like a Caliphate. So, the west has been able to accomplish it's main objectives for the last century. It's just too bad for the US that it has had to bear most of the cost. Suckers. And by the way, who are you to define rational? Edited January 4, 2020 by gowlerk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #53 January 4, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, gowlerk said: And by the way, who are you to define rational? A white American male, of course. Whatever they are is normal, everything else is for them to assign a value to. Ergo “Why can’t they assimilate (and be more like us)?” Wendy P. Edited January 4, 2020 by wmw999 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #54 January 4, 2020 34 minutes ago, airdvr said: Progressives always try to take a rational approach to the ME. And it's always been fucked up by people taking irrational approaches. Quote What do you think we should do about a "government official" (I use that term lightly) like this guy? We know he's directly responsible for hundreds of killings, and indirectly for thousands. Ask him to sit down for tea. FFS And why is he an official in a government that allows him to take those actions? Because we once overthrew a democratic government for corporate profit. There is a direct lineage of cause and effect from what we did then to what's hapening now. This is where irrational aggression gets you. Quote You just forget that you aren't dealing with rational folks over there. We could have been, if we hadn't fucked it all up on numerous occasions. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #55 January 4, 2020 57 minutes ago, airdvr said: Progressives always try to take a rational approach to the ME. You just forget that you aren't dealing with rational folks over there. What do you think we should do about a "government official" (I use that term lightly) like this guy? We know he's directly responsible for hundreds of killings, and indirectly for thousands. Ask him to sit down for tea. FFS Please define 'rational' (as in 'the folks over there'). Believes in the same "God"? Forgets our behavior (both the US specifically & the West in general) for the past 100 years or so? Has no interest in projecting power and influence over the region? Has no interest in preventing it's enemies from doing the same? And what would you suggest as an alternative to the 'progressive's rational approach'? Bomb them back to the Stone Age? Invade and replace the government with one we like? "Glass parking lot"? One of the first rules of international relations is the basic understanding that most, if not all leadership is rational from their own viewpoint. To think Iran is irrational for having a strong hatred for the West in general and the US specifically is to ignore history. Both in the short and long terms. And as far a 'sitting down for tea', what do you think about Trump sitting down with KJU? Is he not a murderous despot? Does he not represent a serious and significant threat? Yet Trump elevates his stature by a huge (and I mean HYOOOOOOOOGE!!!!!) margin. Both by words and actions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #56 January 4, 2020 Please...more of the old "its our fault" bullshit. You forget...Clinton was given a chance to take out OBL but didn't have the balls. How that would have changed history. I'm glad this guy is pink spray. You think you can have a discussion with these folks? Ask Jimmy Carter how well his Camp David accord worked. Three years after Sadat was dead. There will never be peace in the ME. Anyone who says it can happen is delusional. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #57 January 4, 2020 On 1/3/2020 at 7:31 AM, yoink said: New year, new war. History does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 307 #58 January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, airdvr said: Please...more of the old "its our fault" bullshit. You forget...Clinton was given a chance to take out OBL but didn't have the balls. How that would have changed history. I'm glad this guy is pink spray. and had bush sr. (or was it reagan) merely acknowledged bin laden he wouldn't have turned against us, unless i have that wrong. if so, please correct. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #59 January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, airdvr said: Please...more of the old "its our fault" bullshit. It is our fault. They're not over here, we're over there. Quote You forget...Clinton was given a chance to take out OBL but didn't have the balls. How that would have changed history. How many middle easterners think the same thing about any US president you care to name? Quote You think you can have a discussion with these folks? Ask Jimmy Carter how well his Camp David accord worked. Three years after Sadat was dead. There will never be peace in the ME. Anyone who says it can happen is delusional. Why, because they've always been at war? Join the fucking club. Have you ever seen a timelapse of European borders? Thousands of years of constant war. We only stopped fighting each other because we became so good at it we would have literally destroyed the planet if we tried it again. But even that didn't stop us from fighting - we just went to the effort of travelling all over the rest of the world to go and find places to fight in. But do you think you can have a discussion with white western europeans? Pretty sure you do. There is nothing unique about the fact the ME has been in constant conflict for centuries. There are no fundamental differences between them and us. Claims that there are can only be founded on wilful ignorance and racism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,905 #60 January 4, 2020 36 hours or so after the assassination I am noticing a distinct lack of supportive messaging from the R party Senators, aside from Moscow Mitch. I'm sure many of them are pissed off over the lack of notification as Trump huddled in Mara-largo with a decidedly less than A team group of advisors and made a hasty decision. I would guess most of them are sniffing the air and huddling to get more information on just WTF Donny was thinking. It's also possible that the orange one is becoming more unhinged than usual and that his administration is getting spooked by his increasingly erratic behavior. Tomorrow is Sunday. If there are not a large group of heavy weight pols making the rounds of the talk shows to support this move I'm going to start thinking some are getting cold feet. I've always said that this job is far beyond his ability and that he will crack from the pressure. This large error may be the beginning of his undoing. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #61 January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said: and had bush sr. (or was it reagan) merely acknowledged bin laden he wouldn't have turned against us, unless i have that wrong. if so, please correct. That is the very type of thinking that the ME has used for centuries to justify their clan wars. Your great grandfather offended my great grandfather ad nauseum 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #62 January 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, airdvr said: That is the very type of thinking that the ME has used for centuries to justify their clan wars. Your great grandfather offended my great grandfather ad nauseum Which is, again, any different to any other part of the world because...? I mean hell, you are doing the exact same thing right now. Justifying potentially going to war today because of what their great grandfathers did centuries ago. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #63 January 4, 2020 I'm done. You guys want to go that route fine. I'll never convince you and vice versa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,905 #64 January 4, 2020 1 minute ago, airdvr said: I'm done. You guys want to go that route fine. I'll never convince you and vice versa. That's mostly because we see your position as basically "America right or wrong". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #65 January 4, 2020 3 hours ago, airdvr said: Please...more of the old "its our fault" bullshit. You forget...Clinton was given a chance to take out OBL but didn't have the balls. How that would have changed history. I'm glad this guy is pink spray. You think you can have a discussion with these folks? Ask Jimmy Carter how well his Camp David accord worked. Three years after Sadat was dead. There will never be peace in the ME. Anyone who says it can happen is delusional. Of course, this caused no resentment or backlash: 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #66 January 5, 2020 3 hours ago, airdvr said: Please...more of the old "its our fault" bullshit. You forget...Clinton was given a chance to take out OBL but didn't have the balls. How that would have changed history. I'm glad this guy is pink spray. You think you can have a discussion with these folks? Ask Jimmy Carter how well his Camp David accord worked. Three years after Sadat was dead. There will never be peace in the ME. Anyone who says it can happen is delusional. Are you aware of US involvement (meddling) in Iran in the 20th century? We overthrew a democratically elected government to install a brutal tyrant. It's rather disgusting how the US is all about 'civil rights' and 'democracy' unless it is in another country. Then we seem to find the most brutal and oppressive dictator we can, and install them in charge. The US then supported the Shah for 4 decades, selling him all sorts of hardware and getting oil. To pretend that the US doesn't 'own' at least some of the responsibility for the Iranians 'Death To America' attitude is pretty disingenuous. To pretend that Iran has no valid reasons to project power regionally is too. And as far as the Camp David accords go, how many wars have Israel & Egypt had since then? How many large scale wars has Israel been involved in since then? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #67 January 5, 2020 15 hours ago, kallend said: Interference in the middle east has always gone so well for the US. Mission accomplished. 15 hours ago, kallend said: Interference in the middle east has always gone so well for the US. Mission accomplished. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #68 January 5, 2020 Very logical synopsis of what's going on right now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #69 January 5, 2020 10 hours ago, airdvr said: I'm done. You guys want to go that route fine. I'll never convince you and vice versa. That's because you're being irrational. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 307 #70 January 5, 2020 8 hours ago, normiss said: Very logical synopsis of what's going on right now. https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/?fbclid=IwAR1n7AL4HmKvKsROIw2k1wl7ma0Gv1uf1lYG_FDS_85KUn5_cjouHhVou7g fixed it for ya. nobody should ever be exposed to facebook, especially for information. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #71 January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said: https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/?fbclid=IwAR1n7AL4HmKvKsROIw2k1wl7ma0Gv1uf1lYG_FDS_85KUn5_cjouHhVou7g fixed it for ya. nobody should ever be exposed to facebook, especially for information. Absolutely correct, she seems to post to FuckedUpBook before she posts and sends the blog out. I didn't get it until after going to bed and had already caught the FB post. Given the results of FB disinformation, elections coming up, and now a war, I'm troubled with what FB will put out. I think it's going to push social media away from what it is now, which should be a good thing in the long run. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 307 #72 January 5, 2020 i dumped it two years ago but made a fake one to buy gear with. got a rig for $500 so far, when i get both pilot chutes, both dbags, and risers i am gonna delete that one. the stupid is strong on facebook. the only chance we have this year is to make sure we get voters to the polls and hope they aren't fooled by the propaganda. like either of those will happen though. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,381 #73 January 5, 2020 Iraq parliament votes to expel US military https://apnews.com/2fd2efad28f41f82f8204d4d3ae05ba6 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #74 January 5, 2020 Whats this all about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,905 #75 January 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, turtlespeed said: Whats this all about? Probably DC pizza restaurant investors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
