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nigel99

Positive side of organised religion

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9 minutes ago, mbohu said:

each has its realm of validity.

I can't argue with that. But people are not good (in my non-religious humble opinion) at keeping the realms separated, and they allow their subjective experiences to influence what should be considered objectively.

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1 minute ago, SethInMI said:

I can't argue with that. But people are not good (in my non-religious humble opinion) at keeping the realms separated, and they allow their subjective experiences to influence what should be considered objectively.

Yup. But since we are talking about things like "God", meaning, death, the nature of experience itself; I think we are in the territory where both, objective and subjective reality is relevant. 
So in practical terms:
If Ron says that he has an experience of "personal relationship with Christ" you can't hope that the argument "you cannot objectively prove that to me" is going to have any meaning to him whatsoever (much less convince him of anything). You are using and argument from one realm to refute one from a different realm, and it simply doesn't work.
(and no: this is not the same as allowing personal beliefs to apply to parachute flying--I hope that is clear from what I'm writing)

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13 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

I can't argue with that. But people are not good (in my non-religious humble opinion) at keeping the realms separated, and they allow their subjective experiences to influence what should be considered objectively.

One more idea: In the long run I hope that we can (as humanity) establish a language and even some methodologies in the realm of subjective reality, that allow us to deal with it in ways that is more similar to the objective realm--where we get much better at discerning what is true and what may be distorted. So rather than throwing out the entire subjective realm, because it is "mushy" and most people aren't at all good at discernment, we can find ways to make it clearer and treat it with the same specificity and clarity as the objective realm.

Edited by mbohu
spelling

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3 minutes ago, mbohu said:

In the long run I hope that we can (as humanity) establish a language and even some methodologies in the realm of subjective reality

hmm, something better than "my karma ran over your dogma?" :) 

History is not on your side, but never is a very very long time, so I won't bet against it. If you come up with something let me know.

 

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2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

But what about for me? Well "you" chose to read my missive angry and responded in your usual liberal snotty manner. The whole missive was about the younger generation of Christians changing the entire dynamic of Christian faith. 

What about my LGBTQ brothers and sisters? What about them? The progress that's been made is exponential of that of what blacks and latinos have had to go through over the past 100 years. Event the Roman Catholic Pope has come out and said, "Who am I to judge" on the topic of being gay. Stop looking for the bad and start looking for the good. That's what my post was about.  Hell, even in backwater Tulsa - the largest methodist church just had a female gay pastor deliver the Sunday sermon and denounced discrimination against the LBGQTEP community. 

How about my nieces who I want to have reproductive choices? What about it? They have more choices now than they did in 1970. And, my question to you and your liberal friends is, "Why in the hell is abortion still even an option? With the amount of money spent on sex education each year for the past forty years, carrying around a sack of flour, education on HIV/AIDS, having to have your nieces get the HPV vaccine, etc., etc. - you'd think that every swinging Richard would have a condom and every Female on the planet would be on the pill. And, then the only choice would need to be, "When do you WANT to have a baby?"  But, it seems that the liberals don't want a laser-like focus on the matter - just the usual shout from the highest building shotgun approach. Hell, abortions should have been cured by now. 

Kieth, it has zero to do with what a "wonderful life you live" and that's the problem. It's spelled, "Keith."

Will you now come out (no mistaken choice of words) and disclaim that we are a Christian Nation? I will not. I will come out and disclaim that we are not the Christian nation of years past. I am no longer Catholic. Long story as to why and I've shared it on here in the past.  But, as stated in the first missive - this latest young generation of Christians has a completely different perspective on belief, community, right and wrong, pride & prejudice, care for the planet, etc.   

Will you agree that your beliefs deserve no more suckle from the Government than mine? You think the government gives a fuck that you're atheist? You  don;t think you have the exact same rights as everyone else? The First Amendment prohibits the government from punishing citizens for professing and exercising their religious beliefs - including a lack of religious belief.  Atheists are protected by the Establishment Clause, which prohibits the government from establishing a government-sponsored house of worship or showing preference to one or all religions by passing laws to favor religion, or by forcing citizens to profess belief in religion or attend religious services. I got bad news for you Joe. It ain;t the government - it's your fellow citizens. Those who do believe and get tired of your standing on your soapbox whining about how Atheists are so underappreciated or have no rights. The fact is - they just turn and walk away. Kinda like my feelings. I don't give one shit if you believe or not. I just get tired of the shouting about you being a victim Hell, I don't even give a shit about all the different denominations - life is too short to worry about which one thinks they're the MOST right about the bible. 

Will you agree that every person deserves the freedom to live their lives as they choose without interference from anyone's religious dogma?  Just as I've always believed your right to not believe; is as much a right as my right to believe. 

What I disagree with is - the 20 or 20% who seem to think they have the right to stick their fingers in my chest and shout that my belief is wrong when they have no belief in anything except self. 

Well written but I think I can do it with more economy.

Jeo, we're enjoying ourselves and if that negatively impacts you, well, fuck you. It could be far worse for you, your weird friends and your promiscuous nieces. Don't remind us. Seriously. You'll get what you're given, when we give it, and if it suits us to take it back, well, fuck you.

 

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16 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

we're enjoying ourselves and if that negatively impacts you, well, fuck you. It could be far worse for you, your weird friends and your promiscuous nieces. Don't remind us. Seriously. You'll get what you're given, when we give it, and if it suits us to take it back, well, fuck you.

Jeo, You don't want to be receptive about any progress we as a nation have made over the past 50 years and that I see it continuing to incline. I can't imagine looking at the world through your glasses of anger about everything. Take the blue pill.     

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3 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Jeo, You don't want to be receptive about any progress we as a nation have made over the past 50 years and that I see it continuing to incline. I can't imagine looking at the world through your glasses of anger about everything. Take the blue pill.     

I'm certainly warming up to the new spelling of my name, I have to say. I don't deny that I'm angered but you have it wrong as to why. We simply have different ways of seeing human rights progress in our own nation. For you it seems reasonable to view it like a stock chart. You have your up's and downs but over time you are making progress. I see no reason why in an enlightened world any down progress for any group of people should be accepted as the normal course of things. No. That's just wrong in my view. So, I think push back and anger are the required tools.

When groups of people vote for, and I repeat myself, callous assholes who will appoint judges who will reverse that progress, I get pissed off. You may not like it but the truth is that religion drives a hell of a lot of that in America. There absolutely is a Gay's aren't equal component to the religious vote. And you yourself believe, in spite of the science that says no, that life begins when any two heart cells join. That's a religious view, too. That man can not alter God's Creation so the EPA is unnecessary and AGW has to be false are also religious views that, in my opinion, cause great harm.

A year ago in another country we were at a dinner party with some Swiss friends and were joined by an American we'd just met. Like happens in other countries, politics were served with the meal. The American guy flatly stated that based on his faith he was a one issue voter: end Roe v. Wade and nothing else mattered. I see that level of consideration to be a very large problem.

 

 

 

 

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(edited)
28 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I'm certainly warming up to the new spelling of my name, I have to say. I don't deny that I'm angered but you have it wrong as to why. We simply have different ways of seeing human rights progress in our own nation. For you it seems reasonable to view it like a stock chart. You have your up's and downs but over time you are making progress. I see no reason why in an enlightened world any down progress for any group of people should be accepted as the normal course of things. No. That's just wrong in my view. So, I think push back and anger are the required tools.

Morning. I get your point. But, the push back and anger is where reactance theory comes in. When you play tennis, the net is the center. The harder you hit the ball, or even when the opponent sees the ball is going to be hit hard, they back further away from the net. Same in social theory, We're dealing with people. Mere mortals. So, we have to deal with a lack of IQ test to be part of society, we have generations of this is the way it's always been. People need time to adjust to change. So yes, I rely on my charts. It's how we measure progress. Even the dips on the chart can be good. It gives us a means to assess where the dip came from and rectify it.  

Hence, the missive about the church. This youngest generation is breaking all the social norms. They don't care if you're a person of color, Gay, different, special needs, etc.   Perhaps a better tribute would have been:

I believe the children are our are future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
Everybody searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfill my needs
A lonely place to be
And so I learned to depend on me

I decided long ago
Never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity

~George Benson

It's just people, Joe. They don't have switches in their backs to flip on and see the light. They come with baggage. It takes time and education. And, from my perspective, they are learning at an exponential rate. I myself; was a climate denier until 2008 and after Bill hit me with some focused science; I became an addict for learning about this whole climate thing. Now, I look at others (especially on this forum) who are still deniers after all these years and when they argue - can't help but shake my head. Give it time, Brother. Back in the 70's, they were all "Faggots." Now, you have conservative parents of gay, trans, etc. children hollering at their peers, "Knock that shit off." 

It's about progress, Joe. It'll be alright. Take some pride in having taught this newest generation to question the "norms."     

Edited by BIGUN
Double checking for Typos and Grammar : )

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2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Morning. I get your point. But, the push back and anger is where reactance theory comes in. When you play tennis, the net is the center. The harder you hit the ball, or even when the opponent sees the ball is going to be hit hard, they back further away from the net. Same in social theory, We're dealing with people. Mere mortals. So, we have to deal with a lack of IQ test to be part of society, we have generations of this is the way it's always been. People need time to adjust to change. So yes, I rely on my charts. It's how we measure progress. Even the dips on the chart can be good. It gives us a means to assess where the dip came from and rectify it.  

Hence, the missive about the church. This youngest generation is breaking all the social norms. They don't care if you're a person of color, Gay, different, special needs, etc.   Perhaps a better tribute would have been:

I believe the children are our are future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
Everybody searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfill my needs
A lonely place to be
And so I learned to depend on me

I decided long ago
Never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity

~George Benson

It's just people, Joe. They don't have switches in their backs to flip on and see the light. They come with baggage. It takes time and education. And, from my perspective, they are learning at an exponential rate. I myself; was a climate denier until 2008 and after Bill hit me with some focused science; I became an addict for learning about this whole climate thing. Now, I look at others (especially on this forum) who are still deniers after all these years and when they argue - can't help but shake my head. Give it time, Brother. Back in the 70's, they were all "Faggots." Now, you have conservative parents of gay, trans, etc. children hollering at their peers, "Knock that shit off." 

It's about progress, Joe. It'll be alright. Take some pride in having taught this newest generation to question the "norms."     

The only reason we've arrived to this point in the conversation is because it's the internet and there was hard push back. Otherwise these conversations always devolve into a fear of hurting feelings, not being PC, etc. Even here on SC there are those who hate the effect of religion on their cherished values but wouldn't say turd if they'd just taken a bite. Get along, go with the flow, flies with honey, just be nice, don't make waves and so on. Maybe it's not complete honesty but the day will sure go easier.

Guys like you and Brent can take whatever gets thrown at you. So really, it's all your fault.

Jeo

 

 

Edited by JoeWeber

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(edited)

Pushing people into a corner doesn't generally make one's point. It shows a lack of respect for where the person is, and the fact that they probably actually have reasons for feeling the way they do about issues.

Me, I'd rather just explain my point, rather than tell someone how wrong they are. Or just ignore them mostly (as happens with some here). If you divide the world into "with me" and "against right," and do it on a person-by-person basis, then you lose cooperation that could easily be achieved when you see that there are common goals on other issues.

Bigun and I are not aligned on abortion; that doesn't mean that I don't respect his right to think that way, and it doesn't mean I will change my opinion (or quit contributing to birth-control-aligned causes). But he thinks, and reacts to the content of posts, rather than to the person -- that, to me, is a good way to be. 

Wendy P.

Edited by wmw999
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39 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

The only reason we've arrived to where to this point in the conversation is because it's the internet and there was hard push back. Otherwise these conversations always devolve into a fear of hurting feelings, not being PC, etc. Even here on SC there are those who hate the effect of religion on their cherished values but wouldn't say turd if they'd just taken a bite. Get along, go with the flow, flies with honey, just be nice, don't make waves and so on. Maybe it's not complete honesty but the day will sure go easier.

Guys like you and Brent can take whatever gets thrown at you. So really, it's all your fault.

Jeo

 

 

Speakers Corner sucks. I missed the dz.com boogies, but I met a number of posters when I was spending a lot of time in the USA and in fact Keith was the first person who showed me hospitality and took me out to dinner and showed me around town.

I really wish that S.C. had more civilised discussion. It’s fine having different opinions, but shit sometimes this place feels like a fight to see who can be the biggest arse. 
 

The St Patrick’s boogie was amazing and I hope to go back sometime. Just reminiscing and thinking how different people can be in real life.

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3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Guys like you and Brent can take whatever gets thrown at you. So really, it's all your fault.

Jeo

 

There were no emoticons attached to this - so I don't know if this is a joke, or not.

I assume not based on past postings and recent anger(admitted).

 

It's Brent, and Kieth's fault for having a spine.  Gotcha.

 

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3 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Bigun and I are not aligned on abortion; that doesn't mean that I don't respect his right to think that way, and it doesn't mean I will change my opinion (and contribute to birth-control-aligned causes). But he thinks, and reacts to the content of posts, rather than to the person -- that, to me, is a good way to be. 

Wendy P.

Hi Wendy,

What is scary is how much you & I think alike.

At the first of every year I write out checks to those organizations that I choose to support.  That list includes Planned Parenthood, and both local & national versions of NARAL.

Jerry Baumchen

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On 12/31/2019 at 12:01 PM, RonD1120 said:

I do not believe that Isam, Buddhism, or Sikhism, to name three, are not based on superstition. The difference with a true-believing born again Christian has evidence that is spiritual and personal and is substantiated by God's word. That is why we share our testimony. 

It is much the same as sharing what we believe about our personal skydiving gear.

Dear Ron,

You are getting confused.

Since Judaism, Christianity and Islam share common roots (Jewish Torah/Christian Old Testament), that must mean that Islam is based upon fact ... er ... a similar mono-theism.

How can Islam be completely wrong if it is based upon Judaism and Christianity?

I will admit that too many modern Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Hindu, etc. extremists have distorted God’s intents to inspire their violent actions.

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7 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Pushing people into a corner doesn't generally make one's point. It shows a lack of respect for where the person is, and the fact that they probably actually have reasons for feeling the way they do about issues.

Me, I'd rather just explain my point, rather than tell someone how wrong they are. Or just ignore them mostly (as happens with some here). If you divide the world into "with me" and "against right," and do it on a person-by-person basis, then you lose cooperation that could easily be achieved when you see that there are common goals on other issues.

Bigun and I are not aligned on abortion; that doesn't mean that I don't respect his right to think that way, and it doesn't mean I will change my opinion (or quit contributing to birth-control-aligned causes). But he thinks, and reacts to the content of posts, rather than to the person -- that, to me, is a good way to be. 

Wendy P.

Maybe it's a liberal thing or an Oregon thing or maybe I'm just a whack job but I get seriously bothered knowing my Gay friends are getting hammered and now fear for their marriages. It's also plain as can be that giving women more rights, and not just over their own bodies which should be obvious to all, but in every area is the worlds best shot at peace and economic prosperity. Further, that the color of one Americans skin can cause him or her to have fewer rights and opportunities than another American is simply anathema to my world view.

Sure it will piss people off hearing it said out loud but there is a strong religious component to our current march into the past. And, no, I don't like it, and no, I won't be silent.

Like the Men in Black look to the tabloids for news about aliens, I look to Ron for news about our coming demise. He may not know his P's from his Q's but he can smell a coming theocracy like a hound dog. He say's "Patriots" but he means "Christians". He get's the import of Vice President Pence to the cause. He gets how important committed Christian crusaders like Secretary of State Pompeo and Attorney General Barr are to the end he desires: Patriots in Control. And what that portends I am definitely not jazzed about.

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Maybe it's a liberal thing or an Oregon thing or maybe I'm just a whack job but I get seriously bothered knowing my Gay friends are getting hammered and now fear for their marriages. It's also plain as can be that giving women more rights, and not just over their own bodies which should be obvious to all, but in every area is the worlds best shot at peace and economic prosperity.

The right wing push to appoint conservative judges is part of an attempt to turn back the clock. You are not wrong Joe. They are doing whatever they can to undo the basic human rights that have been gained in the past 60 years or so. I don't care if reactionaries are having a hard time adjusting. You and I and the real moral majority can not and will not let them succeed. Either in Canada or in the USA.

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And maybe I’m just a liberal woman, but I’ve had more luck getting people to budge (even if not move ALL THE FUCKING WAY) by talking with them, not at them. And yes, I have gotten people to budge. 

I, too, have gay and non-gender-conforming friends and relatives. They’re lucky and provident in that mostly they live where their continued safety and freedom is likely. No, that’s not true of everyone out there. 

I value the opinions of many people on this forum. Doesn’t mean i agree, just that i don’t figure I know everything yet, and I love to question my assumptions. Not values, but definitely my assumptions. 

Wendy P. 

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3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The right wing push to appoint conservative judges is part of an attempt to turn back the clock. You are not wrong Joe. They are doing whatever they can to undo the basic human rights that have been gained in the past 60 years or so. I don't care if reactionaries are having a hard time adjusting. You and I and the real moral majority can not and will not let them succeed. Either in Canada or in the USA.

That’s also very true. But I don’t think preaching to the choir is as effective as getting someone who disagrees with me to acknowledge that they might be wrong. Because they might talk to their friends, and get some of them to at least moderate their views. 

Wendy P. 

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Just now, wmw999 said:

That’s also very true. But I don’t think preaching to the choir is as effective as getting someone who disagrees with me to acknowledge that they might be wrong. Because they might talk to their friends, and get some of them to at least moderate their views.  

Wendy P. 

People have mostly moderated their views on gays because gays have come out and people have discovered that they are their friends and family. That horse is out of the barn. Reproductive rights on the other hand........ well, I'm not talking about convincing people. You can work on that if you want. but I'm not going to waste my time talking to the wall. It is a flat out fight and will only be won by fighting.

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1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

That’s also very true. But I don’t think preaching to the choir is as effective as getting someone who disagrees with me to acknowledge that they might be wrong. Because they might talk to their friends, and get some of them to at least moderate their views. 

Wendy P. 

Lot of mights, and that's cool if that's actually helping. But I'm not trying to change minds. Nor am I after peace in our time. I'm trying to get people to see the real problem and the real human costs.

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Good points Gowlerk and Wendy,

I remember the whole argument over abortion in Quebec during the 1960s. Abortionist Dr. Henry Morganthaler (sp?) was repeatedly sentenced by courts and repeatedly challenged the written law. Eventually abortion laws were abolished. Then Prime MInister Pierre Elliot Trudeau said: "Government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation."

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On 1/4/2020 at 8:02 AM, JoeWeber said:

I don't deny that I'm angered

Try some Certified Noble Kava imported from Fiji - Loa Waka.

One of the side effects is apathy.  After about 2 weeks, your anger issues will still be there, but you won't feel angry - and might even resort to using humor to express it.

After about a month, the apathy kicks in full effect -  Not giving a fuck is awesome.

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