Positive side of organised religion

[nigel99 143]

Recent debates have got me thinking and reflecting on my world views.

There are a number of positive aspects of organised religion that I think as a whole we are worse off as it declines in western society.

In general terms religion gives people a sense of belonging and community, and with an increasingly fragmented society it leaves vulnerable people with less support. 

Secondly to the best of my knowledge most religions encourage people to ‘give back’ to the community and not be so inward looking. The world is an increasingly selfish place. 

There are many people who draw comfort from their beliefs and it helps them to make sense of what can be a harsh and cruel world. 
 

I’m sure there are other positive aspects, but those are my top three

[turtlespeed 212]

2 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Recent debates have got me thinking and reflecting on my world views.

There are a number of positive aspects of organised religion that I think as a whole we are worse off as it declines in western society.

In general terms religion gives people a sense of belonging and community, and with an increasingly fragmented society it leaves vulnerable people with less support. 

Secondly to the best of my knowledge most religions encourage people to ‘give back’ to the community and not be so inward looking. The world is an increasingly selfish place. 

There are many people who draw comfort from their beliefs and it helps them to make sense of what can be a harsh and cruel world. 
 

I’m sure there are other positive aspects, but those are my top three

 

I would like to add that the programs that are constructed specifically for the children and young adults is a big plus, as well.  I'm not just speaking about the underprivileged communities.  As the Family dynamic that once existed diminishes, having places for the young to congregate and socialize without depending on Social Media outlets is so very important.

[nigel99 143]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

 

I would like to add that the programs that are constructed specifically for the children and young adults is a big plus, as well.  I'm not just speaking about the underprivileged communities.  As the Family dynamic that once existed diminishes, having places for the young to congregate and socialize without depending on Social Media outlets is so very important.

Agreed

[BIGUN 1,050]

3 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

As the Family dynamic that once existed diminishes, having places for the young to congregate and socialize without depending on Social Media

Very true. Raised Catholic, changed to Presbyterian (they do confession and communion also), have been to a Lutheran church after meeting a hoot of a chaplain in the Army (Lutherans have a great sense of humor and don't take the world too seriously). Recently, our daughter got involved with kids that attend LifeChurch and the service is quite different than any traditional church. Everyone attends the service early for bagels and coffee served by Baristas in the form of volunteers.

They all mingle, those in a group will introduce people they see and know to the group. Those groups break up and go meet new people in other groups.   The entire social dynamic is interesting to watch. Then, everyone heads in to the "church" which is in a retail space. Local Christian rock, country & easy listening bands will play and sing Christian music (which is gaining an upwards trend on the charts) to open the service . . . There's no traditional hymnals. The songs are projected on the screens with the words (kinda like karaoke).

There is about 15 minutes of sermon by the founding pastor. They send around the baskets for offerings and while doing it - say something I've never heard before; "Please contribute what you can and if you are in need; please reach in the basket and take what you need" There's nothing about tithes, no guilt if you can only throw in a couple of bucks and I've seen those who can pay nothing. 

After the sermon; there's more Christian music, then everyone heads back to coffee and bagels, gather into groups and decide what they're going to do that day - together as a group. Some opt for lunch, some go for disc golf, movies, etc.

Many of them - like my daughter don't listen to rock, pop or rap - Christian music is a shared like as was the Grateful Dead to us. They go to their concerts, dance to the music, its a social norm to know the music, gather and socialize with the music as their locus. 

As I watch, observe and listen to their goals for the future. Their dreams for the community and even the planet. Talk of challenging careers in biochemistry, space, oceanography, etc. "And, I think to myself what a wonderful world."   

        

[billvon 2,384]

7 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Recent debates have got me thinking and reflecting on my world views.

There are a number of positive aspects of organised religion that I think as a whole we are worse off as it declines in western society.

In general terms religion gives people a sense of belonging and community, and with an increasingly fragmented society it leaves vulnerable people with less support. 

Secondly to the best of my knowledge most religions encourage people to ‘give back’ to the community and not be so inward looking. The world is an increasingly selfish place. 

There are many people who draw comfort from their beliefs and it helps them to make sense of what can be a harsh and cruel world. 
 

I’m sure there are other positive aspects, but those are my top three

I would also add that for people who are morally rudderless, religion provides a prepackaged set of morals that they can use without the need of much work or consideration.  A lot of people who "find Jesus" after a life of crime or depravity use this feature, which is good for both them and society at large.

[gowlerk 1,903]

Organized religion is really nothing more than organized superstition. The advantage of it of course, organization. The disadvantage of it is that it can be misused like any organization.

[normiss 620]

22 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Organized religion is really nothing more than organized superstition. The advantage of it of course, organization. The disadvantage of it is that it can be misused like any organization.

Another downside to it is when it becomes a corporate behemoth and contributes nothing to the local communities it is taking advantage of. They are able to create tremendous tax free wealth.

The social and moral aspect is the only real advantage to them that I have seen. I've met some very solid people through a church. That preacher that kept some of my master cut albums and digitally mastered CD's still owes me though.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

40 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The disadvantage of it is that it can be misused like any organization.

Hi Ken,

Yup.  Ever read the book or see the movie, 'Elmer Gantry'?

Jerry Baumchen

[kallend 1,621]

57 minutes ago, billvon said:

I would also add that for people who are morally rudderless, religion provides a prepackaged set of morals that they can use without the need of much work or consideration.  A lot of people who "find Jesus" after a life of crime or depravity use this feature, which is good for both them and society at large.

Unfortunately, belonging to the "religious right" has become a synonym for "hypocrite".  Thanks be to Trump.

[Coreece 189]

8 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Recent debates have got me thinking and reflecting on my world views.

Thanks Nigel, me too!

 

8 hours ago, nigel99 said:

There are many people who draw comfort from their beliefs and it helps them to make sense of what can be a harsh and cruel world. 

This certainly seems to exemplify your thoughtfulness and sincerity that many here have attested to recently, so thanks again.

I think this is the idea that you were attempting to convey in a post back in October, albeit in a much more verbally barbed manner.  I think it was there where I began harboring much of my resentment for your posts, culminating in my acting out in the solstice thread and maybe even some others.

When we were discussing the whole Proverbs 26 thing, I asked if I had deceived you - but what I've come to realize with further reflection of those verses was that the only person I was deceiving was myself in the sense that I was pretty much convinced that I was moreso joking than I was angry - and yes I realize that others in that thread were trying to point that out as well.

 

Anyway wrt your you quote above, for me it's more about how it helps to endure through it, rather than making sense of it. 

 

And btw,  I can also understand your concerns for all the negatives of organized religion as well.  I have many myself, but I'm not going to go into them right now.  We're getting ready for the big celebration of 2020 - hopefully the year of clarity for us all.  Everyone please have a Happy new year whether you want to or not, be safe, and thanks for putting up with me.

Cheers. . .

[turtlespeed 212]

8 hours ago, BIGUN said:

 . . . biochemistry, space, oceanography, etc. "And, I think to myself what a wonderful world."   

        

Blow that Horn Louie!

[TriGirl 268]

Then there are those who take the good bits of the church construct, and cut out the bad.  I love what this church leader is doing in Toronto:

 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/01/world/canada/gretta-vosper-reverend-atheism.html

The story actually makes me want to check out a church service -- something I have not wanted to do in decades.

[RonD1120 58]

19 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Organized religion is really nothing more than organized superstition. The advantage of it of course, organization. The disadvantage of it is that it can be misused like any organization.

Superstition is a belief without evidence, a lawyer was told me. Organized religion is just what it sounds like. A spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God will provide evidence.

The former and the latter both require a desire to seek. Some have it and some do not.

[gowlerk 1,903]

5 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

Superstition is a belief without evidence, a lawyer was told me. Organized religion is just what it sounds like. A spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God will provide evidence.

The former and the latter both require a desire to seek. Some have it and some do not.

Well Ron, that is how you see your particular religion. But there are many many more organized religions in the world. I’m willing to wager that you see almost all of them as mere superstition. Just the same as I see yours.

[DJL 232]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Well Ron, that is how you see your particular religion. But there are many many more organized religions in the world. I’m willing to wager that you see almost all of them as mere superstition. Just the same as I see yours.

To summarize, Superstition is any faith based belief other than one's own.

[RonD1120 58]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Well Ron, that is how you see your particular religion. But there are many many more organized religions in the world. I’m willing to wager that you see almost all of them as mere superstition. Just the same as I see yours.

I do not believe that Isam, Buddhism, or Sikhism, to name three, are not based on superstition. The difference with a true-believing born again Christian has evidence that is spiritual and personal and is substantiated by God's word. That is why we share our testimony. 

It is much the same as sharing what we believe about our personal skydiving gear.

[normiss 620]

10 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

I do not believe that Isam, Buddhism, or Sikhism, to name three, are not based on superstition. The difference with a true-believing born again Christian has evidence that is spiritual and personal and is substantiated by God's word. That is why we share our testimony. 

It is much the same as sharing what we believe about our personal skydiving gear.

It's not the same thing nor anywhere near anything similar between those two.

Gear is physical, factual, and engineered.

Religion is a belief with none of those things, well, maybe some human social engineering.

 

[rifleman 61]

18 hours ago, TriGirl said:

Then there are those who take the good bits of the church construct, and cut out the bad.  I love what this church leader is doing in Toronto:

 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/01/world/canada/gretta-vosper-reverend-atheism.html

The story actually makes me want to check out a church service -- something I have not wanted to do in decades.

And then you have the assholes like the "Christians" in Australia who are burning Aboriginal sacred objects and trashing Aboriginal sacred sites.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2019/09/pentecostal-christians-are-burning-australias-sacred-aboriginal-objects/

[wmw999 2,117]

12 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

I do not believe that Isam, Buddhism, or Sikhism, to name three, are not based on superstition. The difference with a true-believing born again Christian has evidence that is spiritual and personal and is substantiated by God's word.

Since Islam has the Koran, I’d imagine they also feel there’s evidence. Not to mention there are contemporaneous accounts of Muhammed’s existence. OTOH, there is no claim of divinity for Muhammed, only inspiration. 

I don’t know as much about Sikhism or Buddhism, but I’d imagine they have texts. And both of them are as much practices as religions with claims of unique divinity.

Have a wonderful new year with family, friends, and community 

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,903]

1 hour ago, RonD1120 said:

I do not believe that Isam, Buddhism, or Sikhism, to name three, are not based on superstition. The difference with a true-believing born again Christian has evidence that is spiritual and personal and is substantiated by God's word. That is why we share our testimony. 

It is much the same as sharing what we believe about our personal skydiving gear.

You do not believe that they are not based on?  What a clever man you are using a double negative to obscure your prejudices. I have faith in my gear, not as a superstition or a miracle but as a machine of man. I pretty sure your faith is not strong enough to lead you to step out of an aircraft in flight without a rig and to rely only on prayer to prevent your suicide. 

You have evidence only of your belief. Just like your Muslim neighbours have their own evidence of their believe.

[nigel99 143]

4 hours ago, DJL said:

To summarize, Superstition is any faith based belief other than one's own.

Accurate summary

 

[nigel99 143]

4 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

I do not believe that Isam, Buddhism, or Sikhism, to name three, are not based on superstition. The difference with a true-believing born again Christian has evidence that is spiritual and personal and is substantiated by God's word. That is why we share our testimony. 

It is much the same as sharing what we believe about our personal skydiving gear.

Can we focus on generic positives that you all share and try and resist pushing personal beliefs for one thread? Believe me I’m biting my tongue, not addressing your beliefs

[wmw999 2,117]

Interestingly, you took my description of a “strong” leader as being what i thought a strong leader should be, and agreed that Trump has exemplified that for over thirty years. 

I’d agree he’s exactly that — strong in quotes, not strong in truth. He only feels strong if people adore and agree with him. Anyone who pushes back is out. That’s a good description of a tyrant, maybe even a petty tyrant. 

Wendy P. 

[billvon 2,384]

8 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

 

It is much the same as sharing what we believe about our personal skydiving gear.

Jump out of an airplane with good gear; try to land safely.

Jump out of an airplane with poor gear; try to land safely.

Jump out of an airplane with no gear and pray to Jesus for a safe landing.

Jump out of an airplane with no gear and pray to Allah for a safe landing.

Such an exercise will quickly demonstrate the differences between the cases.

[turtlespeed 212]

16 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

Superstition is a belief without evidence, a lawyer was told me. Organized religion is just what it sounds like. A spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God will provide evidence.

The former and the latter both require a desire to seek. Some have it and some do not.

That only fits if you accept Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism, as being correct in the same way that Christianity is correct.