Solstice celebration

[Coreece 190]

6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Let me just say that atheists have far more reason to fear the religious than the other way around. Yes, I know that there have been certain ideologies that have suppressed your religion in the world. But history shows that the violence has been mostly in the other direction. Far too many people have decided that killing in God's name is the way to go. Belief encourages extremism.

Ah yes, the whole "which group killed the most" game - another dz.com favorite that we get to play 2-3 times a year.  I think the last time was with Nigel back in July.

Yes, various religions killed in the name of their god, but it many instances the reasons extended well beyond any religious dogma  like money, power, control, resources - the usual, much like with atheists.   And while the vast majority of killings by atheists weren't necessarily in the name of atheism, it did happen -  take The League of Millitant Atheists for example.

But to my point, some estimates show atheists killing nearly 140 million people over the last 100 years throughout  Eastern Europe and Asia, most of which likely occurred over the span of several decades, so in that regard, they certainly seem to be more efficient at killing than any religious group has ever demonstrated - and given the very small population of atheists throughout history, they're certainly grossly over-represented when it comes to their share of mass murders.

[gowlerk 1,903]

20 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Ah yes, the whole "which group killed the most" game - another dz.com favorite that we get to play 2-3 times a year.  I think the last time was with Nigel back in July.

Yes, various religions killed in the name of their god, but it many instances the reasons extended well beyond any religious dogma  like money, power, control, resources - the usual, much like with atheists.   And while the vast majority of killings by atheists weren't necessarily in the name of atheism, it did happen -  take The League of Millitant Atheists for example.

But to my point, some estimates show atheists killing nearly 140 million people over the last 100 years throughout  Eastern Europe and Asia, most of which likely occurred over the span of several decades, so in that regard, they certainly seem to be more efficient at killing than any religious group has ever demonstrated - and given the very small population of atheists throughout history, they're certainly grossly over-represented when it comes to their share of mass murders.

I'm not going to get into a pointless argument on the history and the score. The point is that right now there are no Christian killing atheists and there is no movement for religion to be banned. You have no legitimate grievance where you live and worship. There have been in my lifetime religious extremists with sniper rifles taking out doctors for serving their patients against the perceived fantastical wishes of the god of bigots. There are shootings at Mosques and at Churches, and at Synagogues being done by offended believers. In our time and in our cities. There are no atheists killing in the name of freedom from religion. It is a very short distance for people with the kind of anger I see in you and in Ron talking about how godless Democrats need to be taken care of to more outrages. We will not stand by and allow evil people with evil in their hearts to prevail. Believe whatever you want, but understand that the time when your faith can dominate my society is over and I will not ever allow it to return.

Edited December 28, 2019 by gowlerk

[Coreece 190]

31 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

There have been in my lifetime religious extremists with sniper rifles taking out doctors for serving their patients against the perceived fantastical wishes of the god of bigots. There are shootings at Mosques and at Churches, and at Synagogues being done by offended believers.

That is not nearly representative of the whole.  You're just creating a stereotype and instilling fear for a political end.  If a conservative did that for any other group you'd be flipping out calling them racist, xenophobic, mysoginyst, whatever.

 

39 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

It is a very short distance for people with the kind of anger I see in you and in Ron talking about how godless Democrats need to be taken care of to more outrages.

This is why it's becoming pointless to talk with you.  If we take the time to explain something, you just believe what you want anyway.  Ron said neutralize, not vaporize, lol - relax.

At this point I'm just more comfortable with a slightly right leaning division of power primarily because with conservatives I kind of know what to expect, whether I agree with it or not.  That's a bridge we can cross when the time comes to implement conservative legislation.  There are also many democrat social programs that I strongly support and can advocate for those as needed.

I was raised in a working class democrat household, but that's no longer the case.  I support many democrat ideals, and tho I've tried over the last few years, I just can't bring myself to trust anything democrats say - and I can understand why you could feel the same way toward republicans.

I  can't honestly say that I will be voting for Trump, but it's likely I won't be voting democrat this coming year - however, one thing that I know for sure is that I don't want either party having  complete control of the legislative and executive branches - that could be absolutely devastating at this point in time.

[gowlerk 1,903]

1 minute ago, Coreece said:

That is not nearly representative of the whole.  You're just creating a stereotype and instilling fear for a political end.  If a conservative did that for any other group you'd be flipping out calling them racist, xenophobic, mysoginyst, whatever.

Then why in the hell do you keep going on about your precious beliefs being suppressed? Of course it is not "the whole". If it was the whole then we would be in open warfare. I am not creating a stereotype, I know these people are a small minority. Militant atheists who kill are a non-existent group. YOU are the one complaining about the fate of YOUR beliefs in the modern world. Frankly, I'm sick and fucking tired of the way you go on about the changes you are having a hard time coping with. I have cited events that are happening. In our world. Not hypothetical complaining about some past slights like you do. I am talking about reality, not the fantasy of poor Cooreeeeeece  or however many vowels you are using this week to get around your many bannings, having to cope with his feeling of powerlessness.

I really have no problem with your fight for what you believe. It is the way you seem to over and over again express a demand that you have a right to live in a world that thinks as you do that I object to. Not that you are the only one, but you are the one who is here in this forum at this time. Christianity is not downtrodden and forlorn. It must merely learn that it can no longer dominate the conversation. It will not do this willingly, so it needs to be guarded against. No one and no organization gives up power voluntarily.

[Coreece 190]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

I'm sick and fucking tired, blah blah blah

You sound angry.

[gowlerk 1,903]

20 minutes ago, Coreece said:

That's a bridge we can cross when the time comes to implement conservative legislation.  There are also many democrat social programs that I strongly support and can advocate for those as needed.

The whole left right social thing has become so toxic that it no longer makes sense. Democrats are NOT socialist. Corporate America has just spent enough money on politics to convince some people that they are. Fiscal conservatism is just plain common sense.

[billvon 2,391]

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

I could be wrong, but you and your family most likely received some nice gifts this year that contributed to that trillion dollar figure, but I wouldn't label you as materialistic for it.

Indeed we did.  We do not celebrate that trillion dollars; we tend to celebrate each other.  (And try to get the grandparents to stop buying so many toys for the kids.)

[Coreece 190]

2 minutes ago, billvon said:

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

I could be wrong, but you and your family most likely received some nice gifts this year that contributed to that trillion dollar figure, but I wouldn't label you as materialistic for it.

Indeed we did.  We do not celebrate that trillion dollars; we tend to celebrate each other.  (And try to get the grandparents to stop buying so many toys for the kids.) 

Ya, just like 99% of other families that contributed to that trillion dollars.  And I can assure you I'm not in the 1%.

[billvon 2,391]

40 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Ya, just like 99% of other families that contributed to that trillion dollars.  And I can assure you I'm not in the 1%.

No problems with that.  Perhaps you should stop mocking the people who are.

[jakee 1,254]

6 hours ago, Coreece said:

Sometimes it's anger, sometimes it's just frustration, sometimes it's just the way I talk.  Other times objective posts don't really receive much of response so being a bit provocative helps get the thread going.  I'm not really here to talk to myself - I can do that anytime.  Regardless, anger is a natural human response and there's plenty of it in here to go around.

So again, you weren't just joking earlier, you've meant what you said all the way through this thread. So why lie about it?

 

Look, it seems there's an obvious source for the disconnect - you think you were once an atheist, therefore you think you know how atheists feel about religion. But, IIRC, you described yourself as being an atheist because you were angry at god. That's not being an atheist, that's being a christian who's having a nervous breakdown. You need to stop ascribing whatever you were feeling then to anyone you are talking to now because it's just not relevant.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

16 hours ago, Coreece said:

Ron said neutralize, not vaporize, lol - relax.

Oh, you mean like putting baking soda on battery acid? Sure, that's what he meant and we're all just dumb enough to buy it, too.

[Coreece 190]

9 hours ago, jakee said:

So again, you weren't just joking earlier

Again, I never said that I was just joking, but there were jokes.  I mean I certainly don't identify with the Clark Griswold type and I don't really think that children of atheistic parents and are going to grow up to resent the sun, lol - but apparently it all struck a nerve and cut deeper than I even thought - and it's like "OMG he's making fun of an atheist for bashing Christmas, how do we ever get him back!  I know, let's write a poem and say he's materialistic and only cares about food and presents, that'll show him!"

 

10 hours ago, jakee said:

you've meant what you said all the way through this thread.

Especially the part where I expressed that I don't really have a problem with how Nigel celebrates and think it's great how they're teaching his partner's 3-year-old daughter about nature and how things work.  I'm in a very similar situation myself and we have over 500,000 acres of private and national forests, multiple lakes, rivers and great lakes and long sandy beaches with giant waxing gibbouses and beautiful sunrises.  We're very in-tuned with nature and depend on it both physically and spiritually everyday. . .

. . .So no that's not my problem with Nigel and you know that.   My problem is with his chronic hatred for anything religious.  Perhaps your bias blinds you from it, and perhaps by bias amplifies it, but it certainly exists even if you want to minimize the part where he explicitly stated his intent was to bash other's.

I mean, if he was really sincere about his family traditions, why not just let them stand on their own merit rather than defining them based on what he doesn't believe and going on about how it's unimaginable how one can instill values in their children because of Santa Claus and how those that celebrate such traditions are to blame for all the tragedies that are inherent in any type of country-wide celebration?

 

12 hours ago, jakee said:

But, IIRC

That period of about 10 years of my life during my 20s and 30s is certainly a bit more complicated than that, so no, you don't remember correctly - you can't even remember correctly things I've just said in this thread.

[Coreece 190]

15 hours ago, billvon said:

16 hours ago, Coreece said:

Ya, just like 99% of other families that contributed to that trillion dollars.  And I can assure you I'm not in the 1%.

No problems with that.  Perhaps you should stop mocking the people who are.

And if Nigel is sincere about how "life should be treasured and valued, regardless of race, creed or culture,"  and that his "only hope is that by our (atheists) example, we can show (theists) that it is possible to live and make sense of a world without god," then maybe it's in his best interest to let his traditions stand on their own merit rather than bashing those of other's he's trying to impress.

But if he still wants to continue playing this game, then I'm happy to oblige as demonstrated in post #3 of this thread.

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

Especially the part where I expressed that I don't really have a problem with how Nigel celebrates and think it's great how they're teaching his partner's 3-year-old daughter about nature and how things work.  

Which makes it so strange that you're so angry.

 

Quote

. . .So no that's not my problem with Nigel and you know that.   My problem is with his chronic hatred for anything religious.  Perhaps your bias blinds you from it, and perhaps by bias amplifies it, but it certainly exists even if you want to minimize the part where he explicitly stated his intent was to bash other's.

And who, exactly, did he say he wanted to bash? Drunk drivers, perpetrators of domestic violence, and people who get their families into debt over Christmas. I'm genuinely curious - as a Christian which of those groups do you think embodies your values to the point where you feel like your religion is being attacked when they are attacked?

 

Quote

That period of about 10 years of my life during my 20s and 30s is certainly a bit more complicated than that, so no, you don't remember correctly - you can't even remember correctly things I've just said in this thread.

And yet you have, in this thread, explicitly stated that you are projecting your feelings and motivations onto Nigel. I think I do remember correctly, tbh.

Edited December 28, 2019 by jakee

[JoeWeber 2,297]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

And if Nigel is sincere about how "life should be treasured and valued, regardless of race, creed or culture,"  and that his "only hope is that by our (atheists) example, we can show (theists) that it is possible to live and make sense of a world without god," then maybe it's in his best interest to let his traditions stand on their own merit rather than bashing those of other's he's trying to impress.

But if he still wants to continue playing this game, then I'm happy to oblige as demonstrated in post #3 of this thread.

And maybe you should get used to this following you around SC every time you post horseshit and then claim it wasn't so:

 Coreece said:

"They're too disorganized and divided among themselves right now to pose much of a threat.  Eventually they'll get their act together when Christianity in this country has tempered to a whisper where they can finally hear themselves think.  It'll be a country of Nones, with no God, no jobs and no power - and their long awaited atheistic utopia will be competing with 3 billion Christians and 3 billion Muslims that have just completed their state of the art industrialized metropolises throughout the entire eastern world - and soon thereafter they'll realize their god of evolution and progress has betrayed them."

That's the weird, baseless, made-up silliness you've been brainwashed to believe. Maybe if you are left to read it a hundred times you'll realize that what you believe can not be true.

Nigel is not only sincere he is very thoughtful. Instead of accepting Jesus, why not accept the good example?

[ryoder 1,381]

5 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

 Coreece said:

"They're too disorganized and divided among themselves right now to pose much of a threat.  Eventually they'll get their act together when Christianity in this country has tempered to a whisper where they can finally hear themselves think.  It'll be a country of Nones, with no God, no jobs and no power - and their long awaited atheistic utopia will be competing with 3 billion Christians and 3 billion Muslims that have just completed their state of the art industrialized metropolises throughout the entire eastern world - and soon thereafter they'll realize their god of evolution and progress has betrayed them."

 

It seems that some people are so steeped in religion that they absolutely cannot fathom the concept of absence of religion, and think that atheism is just another religion with alternative gods.

[gowlerk 1,903]

55 minutes ago, ryoder said:

It seems that some people are so steeped in religion that they absolutely cannot fathom the concept of absence of religion, and think that atheism is just another religion with alternative gods.

 

55 minutes ago, ryoder said:

 Coreece said:

"They're too disorganized and divided among themselves right now to pose much of a threat.  Eventually they'll get their act together when Christianity in this country has tempered to a whisper where they can finally hear themselves think.  It'll be a country of Nones, with no God, no jobs and no power - and their long awaited atheistic utopia will be competing with 3 billion Christians and 3 billion Muslims that have just completed their state of the art industrialized metropolises throughout the entire eastern world - and soon thereafter they'll realize their god of evolution and progress has betrayed them."

  

The man seems to be unable to fathom how a person or a society can function without the god of Abraham to be it's foundation. In the meantime we are the result of millions of years of evolution and only a few centuries of monotheism. And of that only in what we call western society. There are literally billions of different ways we could have gone. The religions which he loves so much are nothing but accidents of history. Important culturally, but accidents none the less. We don't need them at all to be successful. But we do need organization, and religion is a great organizer.

Edited December 28, 2019 by gowlerk

[JoeWeber 2,297]

24 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

But we do need organization, and religion is a great organizer.

So are three ring binders. Stop tossing biscuits just to be non-confrontational.

[gowlerk 1,903]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

So are three ring binders. Stop tossing biscuits just to be non-confrontational.

It's more that I am seeking answers for why religion is so successful in history despite it's many flaws. I like to choose my battles with a little care. I know I can't beat them into stopping with all the phony worship. Personally I'm pretty sure almost all of them are already full of doubt, but they are culturally committed to pretend to believe.

[Coreece 190]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

And who, exactly, did he say he wanted to bash? Drunk drivers, perpetrators of domestic violence, and people who get their families into debt over Christmas. I'm genuinely curious - as a Christian which of those groups do you think embodies your values to the point where you feel like your religion is being attacked when they are attacked?

I brought this up several times already.  Apparently Nigel feels that his celebrations with his family and friends are a safe alternative to Christmas, but see below:

On 12/27/2019 at 12:06 PM, nigel99 said:

As someone pointed out it is a great time of year to reconnect with family and friends, that goes back a very long way

But that too is cause for celebration where people will be traveling rather extensively and drinking or drugging opiates and their psychotropic anti-depression medication, so I'm not sure why you're singling out Christmas.  New Year's Eve is a big one as well, so if you're out traveling around or hosting whatever festivities you choose throughout the year, it's rather hypocritical to blame everyone else for enabling the tragedies that are inherent in any mass celebration. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Coreece

[JoeWeber 2,297]

25 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

It's more that I am seeking answers for why religion is so successful in history despite it's many flaws. I like to choose my battles with a little care. I know I can't beat them into stopping with all the phony worship. Personally I'm pretty sure almost all of them are already full of doubt, but they are culturally committed to pretend to believe.

Agreed.

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

And if Nigel is sincere about how "life should be treasured and valued, regardless of race, creed or culture,"  and that his "only hope is that by our (atheists) example, we can show (theists) that it is possible to live and make sense of a world without god," then maybe it's in his best interest to let his traditions stand on their own merit rather than bashing those of other's he's trying to impress.

But if he still wants to continue playing this game, then I'm happy to oblige as demonstrated in post #3 of this thread.

And maybe you should get used to this following you around SC every time you post horseshit and then claim it wasn't so:

 Coreece said:

"They're too disorganized and divided among themselves right now to pose much of a threat.  Eventually they'll get their act together when Christianity in this country has tempered to a whisper where they can finally hear themselves think.  It'll be a country of Nones, with no God, no jobs and no power - and their long awaited atheistic utopia will be competing with 3 billion Christians and 3 billion Muslims that have just completed their state of the art industrialized metropolises throughout the entire eastern world - and soon thereafter they'll realize their god of evolution and progress has betrayed them."

That's the weird, baseless, made-up silliness you've been brainwashed to believe. Maybe if you are left to read it a hundred times you'll realize that what you believe can not be true.

Nigel is not only sincere he is very thoughtful. Instead of accepting Jesus, why not accept the good example?

Ya, it's part of another game we like to play here in the SC called "Death To Christianity!" - and that's my response those in this forum that go on about sticking it to the Christians by taxing churches and banning them from congress.

Nigel said "He can't wait for Christianity and Islam to die" - how thoughtful, hey?  What is he going to do, go up to some muslim and say "hey, I'm a good example, follow me - btw, I can't wait for your religion to die!"

 

I also meant to add "no guns," as well.  Here's the graph/article from another thread that originally inspired that bit of satire:

https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/living/pew-study-religion/index.html

[nigel99 143]

39 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Nigel said "He can't wait for Christianity and Islam to die" - how thoughtful, hey?  What is he going to do, go up to some muslim and say "hey, I'm a good example, follow me - btw, I can't wait for your religion to die!"

 

 

Can you point to the thread of where I said that? I don’t get results on the search function and I’m sure that ‘if’ I said it it would have been in context.

I get the feeling not long ago you threw out that another poster expressed that sentiment.

By the way with regards to your joking the bible has a quite apt proverb 

Prov 26:18

As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows and death,

19 so is the man that deceiveth his neighbor and saith, “Am I not in jest?”

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

It's more that I am seeking answers for why religion is so successful in history despite it's many flaws...

Because it had survival value.

And the survival value, both for individuals and societies, outweighed the flaws. 

There is some speculation that the 'inclination to believe' has evolved to the point that it's an intuitive trait.
Somewhat similar to pattern recognition. 

That doesn't make God (any of them) any 'more real', but it does address the fanaticism that many of the 'faithful' display.

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, nigel99 said:

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Nigel said "He can't wait for Christianity and Islam to die" - how thoughtful, hey?  What is he going to do, go up to some muslim and say "hey, I'm a good example, follow me - btw, I can't wait for your religion to die!" 

 

  

Can you point to the thread of where I said that? I don’t get results on the search function and I’m sure that ‘if’ I said it it would have been in context.

I get the feeling not long ago you threw out that another poster expressed that sentiment.

Ya there were a number of quotes from several posters that shared that sentiment, but that specific quote was your direct contribution and you appear to agree with it.  Now if you're saying that's not what you meant, then there are certainly better ways to communicate that, like not speaking in the first person, or simply using quotation marks.

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/266794-40-tonnes-of-f-you/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-4874307

"It is one thing to celebrate videos of death and destruction and rationalise that it’s ok because ‘you’re the good guys’ and a totally different thing to be ok with the ending of a philosophy.

I can’t wait for Christianity and Islam to die, that does not mean I wish for a single Christian or Muslim to die.  

Personally I think Coreece is performing some mental gymnastics to equate the two."

 

And btw, I don't believe I was trying to equate the two.

1 hour ago, nigel99 said:

By the way with regards to your joking the bible has a quite apt proverb 

Prov 26:18

As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows and death,

19 so is the man that deceiveth his neighbor and saith, “Am I not in jest?”

This is pretty remarkable, because I haven't been reading scripture as much as I should be - and for whatever reason (probably because of Ron and this thread) I decided to read again on the 26th.  I love proverbs and there are 31 - at least one for everyday of the month.  Given it was the 26th, I started with proverbs 26 and immediately thought of this thread when I read that.

One of the things that crossed my mind is if I'm deceiving anyone?  I certainly don't think I have, nor did I deliberately intend to.  So let me ask, how have I deceived you?  Do you feel deceived?  If so, how so?

Edited December 29, 2019 by Coreece