Solstice celebration

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

Why is that odd?

People do NOT like being told their deep seeded beliefs are wrong.

They KNOW that they are the truth.

Jeeze, no sense of humor.

I'm sorry, I just keep picturing this Clark Griswold type of guy that promised his family the best Christmas vacation ever, but for whatever reason it all fell through - he basically oversold and under delivered as usual.  And I see him holding his family looking out of the window of some cheap motel watching the sunset - and with that silly cheese-eating grin he says "see family, isn't it beautiful?  We don't need vacations and all that other materialistic nonsense - ahhhhh, this is what it's all about kids, the shortest day of the year. . . . . isn't this just fucking swell!"

And then he just flips out like he did at Wally World.

 

But anyway, Turtle, this why so many people here just can't take you seriously anymore and then eventually just add you to their kill file.  You just pop in and blurt this crap that has nothing to do with what we were actually talking about.

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Coreece

[gowlerk 1,904]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

Why is that odd?

People do NOT like being told their deep seeded beliefs are wrong.

They KNOW that they are the truth.

The only deep seated belief I hold on the nature of what we call our existance is that I , along with you and everyone else have no way of knowing. And yes, I'm sure that is The Truth Of The Matter. Oh, and 42.

[nigel99 143]

16 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Jeeze, no sense of humor.

I'm sorry, I just keep picturing this Clark Griswold type of guy that promised his family the best Christmas vacation ever, but for whatever reason it all fell through - he basically oversold and under delivered as usual.  And I see him holding his family looking out of the window of some cheap motel watching the sunset - and with that silly cheese-eating grin he says "see family, isn't it beautiful?  We don't need vacations and all that other materialistic nonsense - ahhhhh, this is what it's all about. . . . . the shortest. . . fucking day. . .of the year.  Isn't this just ...

 

Your reaction is a mixture of sad and funny. I doubt you have the first idea where many of your ‘Christian’ traditions were taken from. Secondly it doesn’t take much looking to see the damage that happens in the festive season, due to distorted beliefs. Parents who believe they have to spend enormous amounts of money on gifts they can’t afford is common. People who drink to excess at this time of year (my nephew was killed drunk driving about 4 years ago on Christmas Eve, his children no longer have a father). There is a lot of negative in modern society that can be directly attributed to expectations or beliefs of what is expected at this time of year.

As a total aside, your anecdote shows just how materialistically you view the world. As a young teenager my parents were Christian missionaries and as a result we were quite poor at times. One of my favourite Christmas presents of all time was a tin of condensed milk. It stands out from all others not because of its value on monetary terms.

My partner and I enjoy learning about the universe, it’s a shared interest. And it is interesting to see how her youngest child (3) is joining in. Mommy the moon is up in the day time etc. She helps watering mommy’s special plants and seeing flowers grow and die. She’s learning about life. 

So to answer your one allegation, yes I’m bashing those people who get into debt, increase domestic violence, drive drunk or on drugs all in the name of Christmas. You’re welcome to defend them if you want. I’m also calling out the hypocrisy of lying to children (Santa is real), not that I’m going to stop anyone it’s their free will and choice. As for Christians, they adopted pagan traditions over the centuries to celebrate key milestones in their religious calendar, I don’t have a problem with that at all. I just recognise where it comes from.

[gowlerk 1,904]

32 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

There is a lot of negative in modern society that can be directly attributed to expectations or beliefs of what is expected at this time of year.

It's a happy time of the year for many. For others it can be very depressing ordeal. Often because of missing past good times and impossible to meet expectations. Count your blessings if you can.

[billvon 2,394]

4 hours ago, Coreece said:

More like four minutes. 

Shortest day - Dec 21.  Christmas - Dec 25.

Quote

Oh, my bad - he was saying how it's soooo much cooler than enjoying 1Trillion dollars of Christmas giving.

 

But then one year, no one spent much at all.
That trillion remained in pockets large and small!

And Coreece heard a sound rising over the snow.
It started in low, then it started to grow.

But this sound wasn't sad!
Why, this sound sounded glad!

Every poster out in Netville, the tall and the small,
Was singing without any presents at all!

Those people hadn't stopped Christmas from coming! It came!
Without that cool trillion, it came just the same!

And Coreece, with fingers alight on PC,
Sat puzzling and puzzling. "How could it be?

It came without ribbons! It came without tags!
It came without packages, boxes, or bags!"

He puzzled and puzzled till his puzzler was sore.
Then Coreece thought of something he hadn't before.

Maybe Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store.
Maybe Christmas, perhaps, means a little bit more!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

4 minutes ago, billvon said:

Shortest day - Dec 21.  Christmas - Dec 25.

Right. And those 4 days have enough change in the length of the day that it can be detected without precision instruments. 
So that's the day that early civilizations were able to be certain that the sun was not leaving for good, that it would be coming back and we wouldn't freeze and starve in the dark. 

 

An event worth celebrating. Saturnalia. 

 

Merry feast of the sun returning. 

[Coreece 190]

This forum really sucks, I had a relatively long post all written up for nigel and then accidentally hit something and now it's lost - I'll redo it tomorrow.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Coreece

[jakee 1,254]

4 hours ago, Coreece said:

I'm sorry, I just keep picturing this Clark Griswold type of guy that promised his family the best Christmas vacation ever, but for whatever reason it all fell through - he basically oversold and under delivered as usual.

Which means you've completely missed the point. It's sounds like you can't fathom the holiday season without a focus on materialism and excessive consumption. Is that really what Christmas means to you? Food and presents?

[Coreece 190]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Shortest day - Dec 21.  Christmas - Dec 25.

Sunset, December 21 - 4:56

Sunset, December 25 - 4:59

Exiting times!

[Coreece 190]

10 minutes ago, jakee said:

5 hours ago, Coreece said:

I'm sorry, I just keep picturing this Clark Griswold type of guy that promised his family the best Christmas vacation ever, but for whatever reason it all fell through - he basically oversold and under delivered as usual.

Which means you've completely missed the point. It's sounds like you can't fathom the holiday season without a focus on materialism and excessive consumption. Is that really what Christmas means to you? Food and presents?

That's fine, I get it.  You guys can't take a joke so outcomes all the pretense.

[jakee 1,254]

6 minutes ago, Coreece said:

That's fine, I get it.  You guys can't take a joke so outcomes all the pretense.

You haven't said anything funny. If this is a thread of jokes, they're bad jokes. 

 

By the way, I'm always amused by people who make outrageous posts that just so happen to support their own belief system and denigrate others', then go hey it was just a joke, why are you so mad? Here's an idea, if you want to prove how good your sense of humour is then make some jokes about how rubbish your materialistic nativity based Christmas is going to be. I'm sure we'll all be able to join in laughing about how badly you've let your family down.

[kallend 1,623]

It's Solstice for everyone - completely inclusive.

Happy whatever, everyone.  

Don't drink and drive.

[Coreece 190]

10 hours ago, nigel99 said:

I doubt you have the first idea where many of your ‘Christian’ traditions were taken from.

Many Christians came from pagan backgrounds and they brought along their traditions with them.  This is nothing new, and Paul wrote about it extensively in his letters and how to deal with it, if at all.

But every year it seems some miserable blokes learn about our pagan roots and then suddenly feel the need to educate everyone as if it's some new revelation - I get it.   Like you, my resentment transformed into this type of displaced aggression directed at Christianity, specifically the Catholics.  I'd go on about the remnants of Roman pagan goddess worship in the Church and about the Christmas trees, and the lights and Eostre, and all the materialism and how Santa Claus might as well just be Satan Claus.

At the end of the day tho, nobody cares because they don't identify as pagans or whatever it is you're trying to make them out to be or whatever it is you're blaming them for.  Eventually I realized that I didn't care much either - I mean I like the lights and the trees and everything Christmas that we've grown accustomed to, pagan or not.  I built a gingerbread house today with the kids and frequent hospitals with wiccan logos - none of which makes me a pagan dabbling in witchcraft anymore than using chopsticks makes me Chinese.  I mean you just said that you're not a pagan but have no problem adopting pagan traditions, so why not afford Christians that same courtesy?

 

10 hours ago, nigel99 said:

As a total aside, your anecdote shows just how materialistically you view the world.

There's a big difference between materialism and giving of one's self out of love and appreciation.

Personally, the lack of giving and the whole "me 'o clock" thing seemed a little self centered to me.

 

10 hours ago, nigel99 said:

So to answer your one allegation, yes I’m bashing those people who get into debt, increase domestic violence, drive drunk or on drugs all in the name of Christmas.

Well I think we found the source of that displaced aggression I was talking about.

 

11 hours ago, nigel99 said:

My partner and I enjoy learning about the universe, it’s a shared interest. And it is interesting to see how her youngest child (3) is joining in. Mommy the moon is up in the day time etc. She helps watering mommy’s special plants and seeing flowers grow and die. She’s learning about life. 

Honestly, I think that's great - and if that's what this thread was really about, I don't think we'd be having this conversation right now.

 

10 hours ago, nigel99 said:

 I’m also calling out the hypocrisy of lying to children (Santa is real)

Santa was real, it's just that over time he became something that everyone wanted him to be, rather than what he actually was.

What really seems hypocritical tho is singling out an entire religion for celebrating their traditions and then blaming them for debt, domestic violence and drunk driving, unless of course you're a shut-in.

But for what it's worth, I'm very sorry for your loss and can understand why this time of year may be rather difficult for you.

 

[turtlespeed 212]

16 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Santa was real, it's just that over time he became something that everyone wanted him to be, rather than what he actually was.

Hmmm, remarkable.  That sounds like another popular figure we have heard about.

 

 

 

 

 

Mohammed.

Why?  Who did you think I meant immediately after you first read that?

[gowlerk 1,904]

32 minutes ago, Coreece said:

But every year it seems some miserable blokes learn about our pagan roots and then suddenly feel the need to educate everyone as if it's some new revelation - I get it.   Like you, my resentment transformed into this type of displaced aggression directed at Christianity, specifically the Catholics.  I'd go on about the remnants of Roman pagan goddess worship in the Church and about the Christmas trees, and the lights and Eostre, and all the materialism and how Santa Claus might as well just be Satan Claus.

You probably did not intend it, but the whole thing went off the rails when you basically attacked Nigel for the way he is raising his children. No one is EVER going to respond well to that sort of criticism. We all must struggle with what to believe, thank you for sharing part of your personal battle to evolve.

[kallend 1,623]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

 

 

There's a big difference between materialism and giving of one's self out of love and appreciation.

 

 

Yet so many self-professed "Christians" are ecstatic about cutting off food stamps to thousands of their fellow citizens three weeks before Christmas, when the savings from doing so are not only miniscule compared to the tax cuts for the billionaires, but may actually turn out to be negative.

Trump is actually worse than Scrooge.  Scrooge was just a miser but Trump and his ilk are actively cruel.

[jakee 1,254]

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

But every year it seems some miserable blokes learn about our pagan roots and then suddenly feel the need to educate everyone as if it's some new revelation - I get it.   Like you, my resentment transformed into this type of displaced aggression directed at Christianity, specifically the Catholics...

Personally, the lack of giving and the whole "me 'o clock" thing seemed a little self centered to me.

 

Well I think we found the source of that displaced aggression I was talking about.

What really seems hypocritical tho is singling out an entire religion for celebrating their traditions and then blaming them for debt, domestic violence and drunk driving, unless of course you're a shut-in.

So is this all still a joke? As humor goes it’s pretty obscure...

[BIGUN 1,051]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

cutting off food stamps to thousands of their fellow citizens three weeks before Christmas

Their food stamps are not cut-off three weeks before Christmas. 

Quote

 

The USDA rule change affects people between the ages of 18 and 49 who are childless and not disabled.

Under current law, able-bodied adults without dependents can receive SNAP benefits for a maximum of three months during a three-year period, unless they’re working or enrolled in an education or training program for 80 hours a month.

But states have been able to waive this time limit to ensure access to food stamps during the ups and downs of re-entering the workforce. Before this rule, counties with an unemployment rate as low as 2.5% were included in waived areas.

The new rule, which is set to take effect on April 1, 2020, will tighten the criteria for states applying for such waivers, making 6 percent the minimum unemployment rate for a county to receive a waiver.

 

 

[billvon 2,394]

6 hours ago, Coreece said:

There's a big difference between materialism and giving of one's self out of love and appreciation.

Agreed.  Materialism - celebrating the trillion dollars that is spent.  Giving of one's self out of love and appreciation - support of other people no matter what their beliefs.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

7 hours ago, Coreece said:

so why not afford Christians that same courtesy?

It's likely because no one is ramming Atheism down your throat. We simply wish to be free of the expense and impediments of your beliefs. You're as angry a Christian as ever I've corresponded with, that's a fact. I hope you find the promise of peace this Holiday Season. 

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Giving of one's self out of love and appreciation - support of other people no matter what their beliefs.

Right, and what better way to do that than by starting a thread for the sole purpose of bragging about your superior beliefs and bashing everyone else's.

 

38 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You're as angry a Christian as ever I've corresponded with, that's a fact.

I don't know how you can read post #38 and honestly come to that conclusion.

There's apparently only one angry pagan in this thread, and it's not me.

[billvon 2,394]

2 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Right, and what better way to do that than by starting a thread for the sole purpose of bragging about your superior beliefs and bashing everyone else's.

I believe that's the purpose of 99% of the threads here - including yours.

But in any case, have a great Christmas!

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

But in any case, have a great Christmas!

Merry Christmas.

. . .and don't spend too much!

[ryoder 1,381]

I don't like the way this WP article presents the statistics, but it makes a good point, and here is a condensed version:

 

Then respondents were asked whether their selected group should be allowed to give speeches in the community, teach in public schools, run for public office and other liberties.

...

But 65 percent of atheists...who listed Christian fundamentalists as their least-liked group are willing to allow them to engage in three or more of these activities.

...

Thirteen percent of white evangelical Protestants selected atheists as their least-liked group. Of those, 32 percent are willing to extend three or more of these rights to atheists. In fact, when we looked at all religious groups, atheists and agnostics were the most likely to extend rights to the groups they least liked.

...

Conservative Christians believe their rights are in peril partly because that’s what they’re hearing, quite explicitly, from conservative media, religious elites, partisan commentators and some politicians, including the president. The survey evidence suggests another reason, too. Their fear comes from an inverted golden rule: Expect from others what you would do unto them. White evangelical Protestants express low levels of tolerance for atheists, which leads them to expect intolerance from atheists in return. That perception surely bolsters their support for Trump. They believe their freedom depends on keeping Trump and his party in power.

 

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/23/white-evangelicals-fear-atheists-democrats-would-strip-away-their-rights-why/

[gowlerk 1,904]

31 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I don't like the way this WP article presents the statistics, but it makes a good point, and here is a condensed version:

 

Then respondents were asked whether their selected group should be allowed to give speeches in the community, teach in public schools, run for public office and other liberties.

...

But 65 percent of atheists...who listed Christian fundamentalists as their least-liked group are willing to allow them to engage in three or more of these activities.

...

Thirteen percent of white evangelical Protestants selected atheists as their least-liked group. Of those, 32 percent are willing to extend three or more of these rights to atheists. In fact, when we looked at all religious groups, atheists and agnostics were the most likely to extend rights to the groups they least liked.

...

Conservative Christians believe their rights are in peril partly because that’s what they’re hearing, quite explicitly, from conservative media, religious elites, partisan commentators and some politicians, including the president. The survey evidence suggests another reason, too. Their fear comes from an inverted golden rule: Expect from others what you would do unto them. White evangelical Protestants express low levels of tolerance for atheists, which leads them to expect intolerance from atheists in return. That perception surely bolsters their support for Trump. They believe their freedom depends on keeping Trump and his party in power.

 

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/23/white-evangelicals-fear-atheists-democrats-would-strip-away-their-rights-why/

There is no doubt, conservatism is about fear.