Somebody Finally Gets It

[winsor 185]

Climate change is a symptom, not the disease:

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/population-control-critical-part-climate-150004993.html

[billvon 2,379]

1 minute ago, winsor said:

Climate change is a symptom, not the disease:

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/population-control-critical-part-climate-150004993.html

Yep.  A lot of problems (climate change, pollution, water, housing) become a lot easier to solve with fewer people.  That also means a change in the paradigm of endless growth.

[gowlerk 1,901]

Just now, billvon said:

Yep.  A lot of problems (climate change, pollution, water, housing) become a lot easier to solve with fewer people.  That also means a change in the paradigm of endless growth.

Fortunately, or not, population is self limiting in the end. That’s why so many people are concerned.

[brenthutch 383]

17 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yep.  A lot of problems (climate change, pollution, water, housing) become a lot easier to solve with fewer people.  That also means a change in the paradigm of endless growth.

The key to controlling the population is economic development.  Developed countries have indigenous growth rates of nearly zero.

[billvon 2,379]

5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

The key to controlling the population is economic development.  Developed countries have indigenous growth rates of nearly zero.

Which is due to the education that economic development allows.  The #1 working strategy for reducing population is educating women.

In the long run, we have to both stop increasing population - and stop believing that infinite exponential development is possible.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Fortunately, or not, population is self limiting in the end. That’s why so many people are concerned.

Do we initiate a process for eugenics? - or, maybe, try to find a way to allow it to happen and just hope that the climate isn't too far affected.  Worst case is we end up like Venus.  But we may be able to have suitable domes - or environment repair by that stage.

[billvon 2,379]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

Do we initiate a process for eugenics? 

Nope, just education.  I know, not much as fun, but more effective overall.

[wmw999 2,114]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Which is due to the education that economic development allows.  The #1 working strategy for reducing population is educating women.

In the long run, we have to both stop increasing population - and stop believing that infinite exponential development is possible.

Our current model of a successful economy is predicated on growth in demand. That’s done by increasing the number of people, because anything else means that the richer side has to have less money. It becomes closer to a zero-sum game when there are finite everything, including people. 

Mesmo, except for advertising. We seem to still have an endless appetite for that 

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,901]

25 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Our current model of a successful economy is predicated on growth in demand. That’s done by increasing the number of people, because anything else means that the richer side has to have less money. It becomes closer to a zero-sum game when there are finite everything, including people. 

Mesmo, except for advertising. We seem to still have an endless appetite for that 

Wendy P. 

Which is why the current move to limit immigration is going to fail. The rich people are not going to put up with having the growth of their wealth limited.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

The #1 working strategy for reducing population is educating women.

That, and hiring women. I've thought about this a lot from the perspective of someone who has built businesses and needed to have the best people available looking out for the company's interests. Of course, that means the interests of the owners and every other person dependent of the company's fortunes. My firm belief is that the majority of people who don't believe a woman can be the best person for the job haven't signed their own names on very many paychecks.

Edited November 5, 2019 by JoeWeber

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed Joe,

Having a few women on staff greatly reduces the testosterone poisoning that poisons far too many workplaces.

My old boss usually hired women as junior jump pilots because they lowered competition and forced overly-ambitious instructors to limit the worst of their behaviour. Some of the best pilots, instructors and riggers I have worked with were women.

Rob Warner

[brenthutch 383]

16 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Which is why the current move to limit immigration is going to fail. The rich people are not going to put up with having the growth of their wealth limited.

Limiting immigration is difficult because the poor are not going to put up having the growth of their wealth limited.  After all, that is why they are coming here.

[billvon 2,379]

16 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Which is why the current move to limit immigration is going to fail. The rich people are not going to put up with having the growth of their wealth limited.

Agreed.  But immigration isn't the issue in terms of stress on the planet - total population is.

[gowlerk 1,901]

22 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Limiting immigration is difficult because the poor are not going to put up having the growth of their wealth limited.  After all, that is why they are coming here.

The poor are powerless. The rich can stop them if they decide to.

[brenthutch 383]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The poor are powerless. The rich can stop them if they decide to.

What are you talking about?  The wealthiest nation on the planet does not have the ability to gain operational control over its southern border.  And just who are "the rich" you speak of?

[gowlerk 1,901]

19 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

What are you talking about?  The wealthiest nation on the planet does not have the ability to gain operational control over its southern border.  And just who are "the rich" you speak of? 

Yes it does, it does not have the will. The rich I speak of are the ones who want to be able to easily hire cheap gardeners and service staff. I'm sure you can think of a few examples. The reality is that the USA is a vast and very unpopulated nation. Nature abhors a vacuum. Just as Europeans who were poor flooded into the new world when they could, so will the other peoples of the world.

[Erroll 49]

16 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Some of the best pilots, instructors and riggers I have worked with were women.

And no doubt some were men.

This is not really germain to this thread, but I have spent the last 40-ish years in the software development industry and at the level at which I operate, the genders are very evenly balanced. Over the years I have encountered as many male duds as female duds, and as many female stars as male stars.

18 hours ago, billvon said:

Nope, just education.  I know, not much as fun, but more effective overall.

This is the goal to pursue.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

20 hours ago, billvon said:

Which is due to the education that economic development allows.  The #1 working strategy for reducing population is educating women.

In the long run, we have to both stop increasing population - and stop believing that infinite exponential development is possible.

The first point is true, but the story is more complicated than that.  Whether to have a large or a small family can be a deliberate economic choice, and either can be optimal depending on circumstances.

In underdeveloped economies it may make sense to have a lot of children, especially if you make a living by farming but also under other circumstances.  Children are relatively inexpensive if you have little expectation that you will have to pay for education, sports or other optional activities, fancy "toys" (computers, the latest cell phones), etc.  On the other hand, children can provide much of the labor of planting/weeding/harvesting.  Having multiple children in this role provides some assurance that this work will get done even if you (the parent) are incapacitated with malaria or some other disease.  When you get to be too old to work, you will dependent on your kids to take care of you.  Remember that in these economies there is no such thing as pensions, social security, or basically any government support.  Some of your kids will die in childhood or along the way, and most will end up barely scraping by.  If you have several kids, odds are better that one or two will do well enough to care for you, or at least keep you from starving.  Note that this model also applied to much of the US until just a few generations ago.

In developed economies, we don't depend on our kids to work the farm (or other business) in the same way.  We are expected to put money aside (voluntarily through pensions/investments, or involuntarily through  social security or equivalents) to care for ourselves.  It seems selfish to say "I don't need to put money away, my kids will look after me."  Kids are, in our society, very expensive.  There are expectations that we will provide clothing, medical and dental care, education up through college/university if we can, extracurricular activities, and so on.  My brother has a 12 year old son who is in a traveling hockey team (so quite advanced/competitive) .  He spends $20-30,000 a year on fees, equipment, rink rental, coaches, and travel.  Even "simple" things like transportation is impacted by family size.  How do you get a family of 12 anywhere?  Own a bus?  In developed economies, kids (despite their many positive attributes) are a net large economic liability.  Even if you want a large family, you might not be able to afford that, or you may have to make painful tradeoffs.

Of course, education of women is also important.  Educated women can make choices and exert some control over their lives (as much as any of us can I suppose).  Educated women may contribute to the economic success of the family, and reduce the dependence on kids.  Of course, they can support themselves and so are not dependent on being in a family to survive.  Generally, women's access to education goes along with economic development, so it can be hard to disentangle the role of education from other aspects of economic development that tend to drive the transition from kids as investments to kids as economic consumers.

Don

 

 

[brenthutch 383]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Yes it does, it does not have the will. The rich I speak of are the ones who want to be able to easily hire cheap gardeners and service staff. I'm sure you can think of a few examples. The reality is that the USA is a vast and very unpopulated nation. Nature abhors a vacuum. Just as Europeans who were poor flooded into the new world when they could, so will the other peoples of the world.

We didn't import them as much as Europe exported them.  As far as the folks who want cheap labor to tend to their gardens, you must be talking about the Democrats, I will remind you, the Republicans nominated a build-the-wall-and-keep-them-out candidate. 

[gowlerk 1,901]

42 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

We didn't import them as much as Europe exported them.  As far as the folks who want cheap labor to tend to their gardens, you must be talking about the Democrats, I will remind you, the Republicans nominated a build-the-wall-and-keep-them-out candidate. 

Yes, the rank-and-file and poorly educated Republicans are in favour of keeping out immigrants. The rich upper class elite Republicans on the other hand are more likely to want to staff Mar-a-Lago with them.

Edited November 6, 2019 by gowlerk

[normiss 619]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

We didn't import them as much as Europe exported them.  As far as the folks who want cheap labor to tend to their gardens, you must be talking about the Democrats, I will remind you, the Republicans nominated a build-the-wall-and-keep-them-out candidate. 

Leaving somewhere due to poverty, violence, and instability, isn't an exportation.

It's an act of desperation in an attempt to survive.

Don't want cheap labor to tend your garden and work in the food delivery process to get that food to you???

You ready for that exponential cost increase???

[gowlerk 1,901]

14 minutes ago, normiss said:

Don't want cheap labor to tend your garden and work in the food delivery process to get that food to you???

Not to mention TIs and packers!

[DJL 232]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

We didn't import them as much as Europe exported them.  As far as the folks who want cheap labor to tend to their gardens, you must be talking about the Democrats, I will remind you, the Republicans nominated a build-the-wall-and-keep-them-out candidate. 

Republicans nominated the Build-the-Wall-because-it's-a-catchy-campaign-slogan-candidate.  Democrats are the That's-a-stupid-waste-of-money-Party as is in evidence by the fact that people are simply cutting through sections for the nefarious activities Trump warned about and still simply just flying in and overstaying visas.

[billvon 2,379]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

We didn't import them as much as Europe exported them. 

My grandparents were immigrants with zero money.  They weren't exported; they left.

Quote

As far as the folks who want cheap labor to tend to their gardens, you must be talking about the Democrats, I will remind you, the Republicans nominated a build-the-wall-and-keep-them-out candidate. 

I will remind you that the same guy you believed on the whole "keep-them-out" platform was using them to run his properties at the same time - and laughing at you when you believed him.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

and laughing at you when you believed him.

Hi Bill,

Sometimes the truth simply hurts.

Jerry Baumchen