Lubricating the 3-ring loop

[sundevil777 93]

I think the value of lubricating the inside radius of the 3-ring loop where it contacts the release cable is important and underappreciated. Of course lubing the cable in general is important, but I think a substantial part of the overall force to pull a release cable is due to the drag right at the loop, and applying lube to the loop is a subject worth addressing.

The attached pic provides some evidence to support my claim. Mr. Booth used it many years ago in a thread where he advocated the benefits of the traditional, large 3-ring system over mini rings.  The different graphs were intended to show how pull force varies with the load at the loop, with the different systems having a different mechanical advantage (and some effect from inconsistent construction affecting mechanical advantage) which results in different loads at the loop.

While on the subject of reducing pull force, we might as well touch on what I think is now widely accepted that silicone lube is best instead of some type of oil or other product. I think the gel type silicone grease, such as the cypress loop grease is better than the spray type. Other threads have devoted a lot of discussion about food grade silicone sprays, but the gel makes more sense to me. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Perhaps there would be fewer instances of hard pulls and only one side released if lubing the loop were standard practice. I can't remember it being emphasized in all my years. I put the gel grease right on the inside radius of the loop, what do you think?

Edited September 29, 2019 by sundevil777
edited to include attachment

[RiggerLee 61]

It's an interesting idea. I see two questions, the first being how much would it help, the second being what down sides there might be. The friction from the loop of course plays some part in the pull force but I think a lot of it is from the bend in the cable as the loop tries to pull the cable through the grommet. It doesn't have to pull it all the way through. All it has to do is cause a small bend there at that point. As you try to pull the cable through that point your trying to pull it through a rather sharp bend. Pinch a cable between your fingers, pull. Not a problem. Take two fingers and your thumb and put a small sharp bend in the cable. Try to pull it through that with out relaxing your fingers, much harder. The sharper and greater that bend the harder it will be. In reality it's probable a high peak force followed by a more moderate but still high load from say a spinner. Cable gets a kink and although the loop can move it's now pulling on a point on the cable with a kink and it's harder to pull that bend past the grommet. I think a better solution might be to reexamine the end on the housing. I was really interested when Mirage came out with their housing ends. Why should we be stuck with #0 grommets. That hole could be smaller. At first they had sharp edges and there were some marks being left on cables, They radiused them and fixed that problem but that makes the hole "wider". I just think that hole could be smaller. Large enough for a twist in the line to pass through but smaller then we have now. 

 

If you put a lube or grease on the loop I'm worried that it will be more prone to pick up dirt and grit off the floor. They are a wear point. It would be an issue. I wonder if a "dry lube" Like some of the things we use for magazines in fire arms would be better. Generally you spay it on and it evaporates leaving behind a Teflon or some thing like that. Point is that it's a dry surface that does not attract dirt. I have not tried this. I am not advocating this. It's just an example that popped into my head as I was setting here typing. For all I know these things might eat nylon. Just tossing it out as a thought.

 

This is an interesting idea but you should test it before we all go out and do this to our risers. Take a couple of really active teams, 1000 jump a year guys. Convince them to let you do this to ONE of their risers. All the left hand risers, not the right. Let them put a thousand jumps on those risers and at the end of the year, when they should be throughing them out any ways, evaluate them. Including pulling that loop to breaking on a test stand. Compare the two sides. Do this in a few places like Eloy where it's dusty and some place not. I'd like to see how the wear changes. Hell I could probable convince Phil to pull them for you.

 

And to be fair you would need to convince the manufacturer to sew up some riser ends, at least the loops as a brand new base line. I haven't done this but I might bet that the new ones would break at the sewing and the old ones at the end or at a wear point over the ring.

 

Lee

Edited September 29, 2019 by RiggerLee

[skydiverek 54]

On 9/29/2019 at 9:02 PM, RiggerLee said:

I think a better solution might be to reexamine the end on the housing. I was really interested when Mirage came out with their housing ends. Why should we be stuck with #0 grommets. That hole could be smaller. At first they had sharp edges and there were some marks being left on cables, They radiused them and fixed that problem but that makes the hole "wider". I just think that hole could be smaller. Large enough for a twist in the line to pass through but smaller then we have now. 

 

 

How about this new housing end?

 

 

[IanHarrop 37]

2 hours ago, skydiverek said:

 

How about this new housing end?

 

 

Interesting. I'd like a better look at these things but there is nothing on their site.

In the video, they state that the product is going to be on rigs starting in April and the video was posted before that so I am assuming they missed their target release date. 

Does anyone know what is happening now with this product?

[koppel 3]

On 12/28/2019 at 11:26 PM, skydiverek said:

 

How about this new housing end?

 

 

possibly not so new.  It might be a variation on those found on the Advance from Basik

 

check pages 22 & 23

 

http://www.skytec.ind.br/pdf/seven_manual_02-09.pdf

 

 

[jimjumper 25]

I think I'll stick with my large rings while you guys work the bugs out.

[RiggerLee 61]

They have been working on it for over thirty years. Can't  really get around the ratios of the the size of the rings to their guage and the thickness of the webbing. Mini rings are really just too small. There are the aerodine rings which are a substantial improvement. Not quite as good as large rings but so so much better then any mini ring riser. The substantially reduice the internal stresses between the second and third ring. And consequently the load on the loop. I think the reduction in internal stress is the most important part as i have seen risers fail at the tape for the third ring. 

 

We've actually pull tested... well everything trying to build 20,000 lb releases. So we've actually pulled all of these peaces of hardware and designs to destruction with load cells. 15,000 lb webbing is exciting when it lets go. Some of the hardware send pieces flying when it snaps. The aerodine rings were some of the best. If you are curious their failure mode is that they bend wrapping around the main ring rather then snapping but you have to build a kevlar riser to have enough strength to make them do it.

 

Lee

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

On 1/2/2020 at 11:39 AM, RiggerLee said:

 

 

We've actually pull tested... well everything trying to build 20,000 lb releases. So we've actually pulled all of these peaces of hardware and designs to destruction with load cells. 15,000 lb webbing is exciting when it lets go. Some of the hardware send pieces flying when it snaps. The aerodine rings were some of the best. If you are curious their failure mode is that they bend wrapping around the main ring rather then snapping but you have to build a kevlar riser to have enough strength to make them do it.

 

Lee

You have the best job in the whole world.

[texmex 0]

There would be no advantage by applying silicone to the loop. Firstly, after a number of jumps, the loop will have been (from regular packing and wear) worn already and picked up dirt.

However, the loop could be total garbage BUT with a properly lubricated cable, youd achieve exactly what youre looking for.

In addition, by using silicone gel on the loop, you are also then getting it onto the cable....the cable that should be well lubricated. Despite common belief there are many excellent wet and dry lubes for good cable friction.

[Guest]

On 9/29/2019 at 5:40 PM, sundevil777 said:

I think the value of lubricating the inside radius of the 3-ring loop where it contacts the release cable is important and underappreciated. Of course lubing the cable in general is important, but I think a substantial part of the overall force to pull a release cable is due to the drag right at the loop, and applying lube to the loop is a subject worth addressing.

The attached pic provides some evidence to support my claim. Mr. Booth used it many years ago in a thread where he advocated the benefits of the traditional, large 3-ring system over mini rings.  The different graphs were intended to show how pull force varies with the load at the loop, with the different systems having a different mechanical advantage (and some effect from inconsistent construction affecting mechanical advantage) which results in different loads at the loop.

While on the subject of reducing pull force, we might as well touch on what I think is now widely accepted that silicone lube is best instead of some type of oil or other product. I think the gel type silicone grease, such as the cypress loop grease is better than the spray type. Other threads have devoted a lot of discussion about food grade silicone sprays, but the gel makes more sense to me. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Perhaps there would be fewer instances of hard pulls and only one side released if lubing the loop were standard practice. I can't remember it being emphasized in all my years. I put the gel grease right on the inside radius of the loop, what do you think?

When I bought a new rig I followed BB's advice and stuck with full-size rings. Might look dated (in fact a douchebag TM/AFF instructor once snarked at me about how "old" my rig looked. I was mystified by his remark because it was a VSE Infinity - vert der ferk?), but as BB has remarked, the large rings are much more forgiving when it comes to being manufactured - all forces acting on the rings are less than the smaller ones. I'm for anything that gives me more confidence (instead of less) in the equipment I'm betting my life on every time I go out the door.

[sundevil777 93]

Quite right!  I'll choose to cut my cutaway pull force in half instead of having mini-rings.  This is especially true for heavier jumpers, and when cutting away from spinning mals.

[sundevil777 93]

After a few years and few hundred jumps, regularly applying cypres lube on the inside radius of the 3 ring loop. The loop is kinda dark, but looks undamaged. The pic is showing the inside radius “flipped outward”. You can see a spec of lube at the left. I had lubed it a couple hours before this pic while hooking up the main. The lube absorbs into the fabric without making it appear saturated. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by sundevil777

[sundevil777 93]

Several hundred jumps since I've been doing this, and the loop still looks like it did 2 years ago in the earlier post.  Midwest grass landing areas of course help it stay clean, but the loop looks to be in great condition, just darkened and slick.  I still lay it with the loop facing down on packing carpets, so this is a reasonable test of whether my idea will wear out my risers - myth busted in my opinion.

The question of whether my idea actually reduces the cutaway pull forces more than what is normally done to lube the cables isn't answered, but I do know I've done no harm.  It would be interesting to know how the cutaway pull forces are distributed - how much is due to housing friction, how not pulling straight in line with the housing contributes, and how much is due to the loop friction.  

I also know there was VERY little drag when cutting away a spinning line-over a month ago.  Big 3-rings and a well lubed system yields good results.  You kids with your mini 3-rings can keep it.  Especially for those pushing 200 pounds without gear.  The graph I posted earlier in this thread should get some jumpers to consider the choice.