0
Dogmatix

Packing innovations

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

You get back from your jump, dock your rig, walk the lines and give it a good shake. Then press the button and the lines start pulling into the rig like a vacuum cord and packing the chute where it belongs. 

You're almost there already.  The canopy doesn't have to be flaked to get a decent opening, and it will crush into the same space it will fold into.  Get a canopy that doesn't need the brakes set, like Icarus tandem canopies.  I'm not sure how to handle keeping the bag closed, but we've done some experiments with no-bag deployments (although the fact that we're still using bags tells you those experiments didn't work out well).  The lines don't really need to be stowed in rubber bands; for years we just coiled the lines in the container, then put the canopy on top of the coiled lines.

For closing the container, I'm imagining a electrically powered tool like a hand drill instead of a crank ("positive leverage device").  I wouldn't worry about getting the loop too tight, because I've seen a mechanical, jumper-activated loop cutter on a parachute -- Sandy Reid has a WW2 Italian device.  You wouldn't be pulling the pin with a ripcord or a pilot chute, although you might use pilot chute drag to trip the mechanical cutter.  You'd either need to replace the loop at every jump, but that's something the packing machine could just make from a spool of line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

In regards to line stowage. I do recall people just making two stows on the bag and coiling the remainder of the line in the container. I knew a guy that did this with an old crw canopy. There were two thoughts. First it was quicker and easier. Second, some people did it to try to avoid bag wobble and spin on the way to line stretch. Down side, the reason this fell out of favor is that sone times one of those lines that is streaming out of the container gets looped around a side flap and causes a nasty horse shoe malfunction. A guy died at our drop zone from such a mal, or at least that's our best guess. And he wasn't even coiling all the lines in his tray just maybe a little two much excess. So it can and does happen and leaving all that line in the tray is just asking for it. 

 

Packing with out a bag. Done a lot of this with various canopies doing CRW. I've jumped tail pockets, tail flaps, diapers of various types as well as bags. If you're having trouble packing with a bag you will not enjoy closing a container on a free packed canopy. Basically you are folding and packing the canopy at the same time that you are trying to close the container. It's also easier to damage the canopy when it is not protected by the bag. Splitting it up in to two steps, folding and controlling it with a bag, and closing that bag into a container as two separate steps is easier. In the end you can actually jump with out a bag just fine. It's all about getting the canopy to line stretch in good order with the line straight, slider up, and the breaks set. It can be done but a bag offers a far more positive staging method then a tail pocket. You could go with a diaper, they are almost as good but most people don't want to deal with the lose canopy closing the container. They prefer the canopy to be in that warm dark bag, out of sight out of mind. 

 

Generally speaking what we have always found is that staging is the most important factor in the opening of the canopy. If you look at the numbers more and better staging of the deployment translates to lower malfunction rates and more consistent openings.

 

Lee

Edited by RiggerLee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, RiggerLee said:

He actually has asked some legitimate questions. He's a newbie and has discovered that packing sucks. He will in time get better at it. The question of is there a better way is perfectly valid. 

He hasn't come up with any thing new or revolutionary... yet. I keep waiting for some gem to fall out of his mouth that will revolutionize  the world. It could happen. Monkeys might reproduce Shakespeare. It might take longer then the heat death of the universe, but it might happen tomorrow. You'll never know what will stick and you wont find out unless you throw it against the wall. 

 

Lee

Thanks. That says what I was trying to say far better than I did.

22 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Thanks, it's really not more complicated than this. Can't believe it resolves to me complaining and not respecting more experienced jumpers. It's a very general question and I throw out something to get the discussion started. I very much identify myself as a monkey that might get lucky, it actually happens once in a while that people mistake me for being smart.

It has nothing to do with 'respecting experienced jumpers'. It's more that you don't know how to do it right (yet) and you are asking if there is a better way. Not entirely unreasonable, but as was suggested above, learn how to do things the way they are done and why. Then start innovating.

Packing is work. Packing when you are new and not very good at it is hard, frustrating and a LOT of work. 

However, it will get easier. I honestly don't think much about it. I don't worry too much about making it easier, I worry more about making sure the thing will open the way I want it to.

Once you get to the point you can pack without swearing in less than 20 minutes, then look at how much work you are willing to put in to make it 'better and easier'. And cost. Don't forget that. 
The idea of a 'robot packing machine' isn't all that far-fetched. There are some nuances with flaking & quartering the slider that would be hard to do, but the rest of it could be automated, with adequate funding and effort.

But (and it's a big but), it would cost. And with pack jobs being $7 for a sport rig and $15 for a tandem, covering the several million dollars needed to design & build one is going to be a problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I maintain that the PackMonkey was the difference between me completely giving up on learning to pack, and now just mildy dreading it.  My pack time has gone down significantly, and each pack job is helping me to get faster.  Those damn stows still take me the longest time though.  I've gotta revisit my technique on making sure the lines don't slack between the stows - my wrapping technique needs improvement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2019 at 1:42 AM, Dogmatix said:

Imagine that. You get back from your jump, dock your rig, walk the lines and give it a good shake. Then press the button and the lines start pulling into the rig like a vacuum cord and packing the cute where it belongs. :)

*duck and cover*

Reminds me of that Star Trek flick in which they have to jump off the starship and land on a platform under some kind of bat wing shaped canopy... During the scene I was complacently smiling and thinking 'let's see what Hollywood has thought up about how the future has improved skydiving. Until they slapped their three rings and the canopy packed itself. Then I thought, "Alright, I want one of those".

I see a lot of good comments here in this thread, but I'm not entirely getting the part about the pilot chute not fitting and needing a lot of force to be put in the rig. Are you jumping springloaded gear by any chance?

BTW, I am not a fan of double-stowing rubber bands. I just use *smaller* rubber bands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Baksteen said:

BTW, I am not a fan of double-stowing rubber bands. I just use *smaller* rubber bands.

Double stowing a big rubber band is inherently superior to single stowing a small rubber band. The entire line group is supported as it is lifted off the bag, as opposed to a single wrap, where there is a gap that allows the stow to slip off at an inopportune time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The discussion about the superiority of double of single stowing is just as useless as the one about the superiority of the single hand reserve procedure versus the two handed reserve procedure.

Let's just say that you have your theory and I have mine and let's agree to disagree.

However, I feel that if the entire cause of someone's canopy opening reliably is dependent on being super anal about what rubber bands you use and how you use them, there might be other underlying issues at play. And yes, of course I am exagerrating, which I know better how to do then how to spell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/24/2019 at 10:55 PM, Baksteen said:

The discussion about the superiority of double of single stowing is just as useless as the one about the superiority of the single hand reserve procedure versus the two handed reserve procedure.

Except that single handed vs 2 handed reserve procedures both have pros and cons, and therefore they could be discussed or be a matter of preference. Double stowing doesn't have any in-air "con". Sure, replacing rubber bands more often is a pain in the ass, but that is far from "with single handed EP you can die this way, and with double handed EP you can die this other way".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nor does using appropriately sized rubber bands, which eliminates the need for double stowing - incidentally without removing the PITA of replacing rubber bands more often (hence the comparison).

IMO laziness in replacing the rubber bands is the real cause of all that bagstrip, linedump etc. that people are so afraid of - not the fact whether you double stow very large rubber bands or single stow very small rubber bands, or something in between.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Baksteen said:

Nor does using appropriately sized rubber bands, which eliminates the need for double stowing - incidentally without removing the PITA of replacing rubber bands more often (hence the comparison).

IMO laziness in replacing the rubber bands is the real cause of all that bagstrip, linedump etc. that people are so afraid of - not the fact whether you double stow very large rubber bands or single stow very small rubber bands, or something in between.

I know that on many of my parachutes - the standard "small" rubber band commonly found in skydiving is not small enough to hold the lines post-cascade tight.  They are loose in it.  Thus I normally double stow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Baksteen said:

Nor does using appropriately sized rubber bands, which eliminates the need for double stowing - incidentally without removing the PITA of replacing rubber bands more often (hence the comparison).

Appropriately sized rubber bands do not hold the whole line group tight if they are not single stowed and any force pulls a bit on them. The lines on the gap between the rubber band and the bag will be loose. Hence, single stowing short rubber bands do not eliminate the need for double stowing.

 

I single stowed many jumps. I agree that in many canopy/line/bag combinations a tight rubber band will be enough for most of the time. But the mechanics are there and support that double stowing is the best way to ensure that the whole group will release at once. Whether that is important or not depends entirely on the situation of each jump, but for sure it won't hurt.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account. It's free!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0