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baronn

USPA continues to fund ISMHOF

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On 8/16/2019 at 6:09 PM, Deisel said:

Lots of USPA members support this project. The BOD is representing everyone, not just the folks complaining about it. It's easy to complain, much harder to get things done. 

Really?  Who?  I think "lots" of BOD members - those in office at that time, anyway - supported this project.  The mumblings I've heard at my previous dropzone, my current one and the one's I've visited on the road haven't been supportive in the least.  

And that bit about "complaining":  it all depends on where you sit.  I'm sure the BOD members and previous BOD members who supported this project would call it complaining.  I would call it "speaking up."  

Bottom line:  what the USPA is doing amounts to nothing less than embezzlement and we need to clean it up.  5 years and nothing?  What a bunch of crap.  

-JD-

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On 8/20/2019 at 11:44 AM, meat.missile said:

Oh and let's add a little context to what baronn is complaining about. This is stolen from another thread.

~$0.75 per year, I take poops that cost people more than that. 

Actually, Baronn, I will give you $5 if you don't bring this up again till 2025.... so I don't have to read your crappy comments on the topic. 

Let's do some more math:  what's $.75 multiplied by the USPA constituency of $39,827 (end of 2018)?  $29,870.25

So it's OK for the BOD to "pass the buck"?  How about $29,870.25 bucks?  That's money we could have used for something that would actually produce something tangible, not some pipe dream that no one seems to "give a poop about."

-JD- 

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19 minutes ago, skyfox2007 said:

what the USPA is doing amounts to nothing less than embezzlement

em·bez·zle·ment
/əmˈbezəlmənt/
noun
noun: embezzlement; plural noun: embezzlements
  1. theft or misappropriation of funds placed in one's trust or belonging to one's employer.
    "charges of fraud and embezzlement"

     

    I'm hoping that you merely don't understand the meaning of the word embezzlement and you don't really think the BoD and/or the people promoting the museum are thieves.

     

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1 hour ago, gowlerk said:
em·bez·zle·ment
/əmˈbezəlmənt/
noun
noun: embezzlement; plural noun: embezzlements
  1. theft or misappropriation of funds placed in one's trust or belonging to one's employer.
    "charges of fraud and embezzlement"

     

    I'm hoping that you merely don't understand the meaning of the word embezzlement and you don't really think the BoD and/or the people promoting the museum are thieves.

     
What is the legal definition of embezzlement?
Embezzlement Law and Legal Definition. Embezzlement is the fraudulent appropriation of money by someone entrusted with it's care on behalf of other's. Embezzlement typically occurs in the employment and corporate settings.
I and I don't believe Skyfox are accusing the BOD or the ISMHOF of this at this time. However, to say the funds given for this "Project" wude fall under this description in a court of law wude not be a stretch. Because of the lack of any transparency of where those funds have gone and what they're being used (or are going to be used) for, by either of those parties does make you wonder what is really going on. Instead of choosing to give ANY updates on progress (or lack of), they CHOOSE to not do that and instead, induct folks into a non-existing museum and continually ask for more funding. 
 I have reached out to a few BOD members and I plan on calling the rest next week. I am hearing the same thing about dis-enchantment over lack of progress. From what I am being told, not a single member of the ISMHOF attended the BOD meeting this summer. Granted, they aren't required to be there. However, they are accepting funding for this and some effort from somebody from there, wude most certainly been welcome. 
Now before anyone gets their shorts in a twist (again)  I have no ambition of getting anything for any effort I put into this. I have no intention of ever being mentioned in it If it ever gets built. I simply feel it's a sad day when so many members that shude be in it and some of their artifacts and contributions have nowhere to go at this time. Sad and wrong.
 
 Something to think about, for a little bit more than what the USPA BOD has agreed to give to the ISMHOF, they cude have bought an R44 with a trailer and toterhome, found a retired heli pilot that wanted some adventure and sent that rig out over the year for members to enjoy. The lift tickets would easily support it. How Cool wude that be!

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2 hours ago, skyfox2007 said:

Let's do some more math:  what's $.75 multiplied by the USPA constituency of $39,827 (end of 2018)?  $29,870.25

So it's OK for the BOD to "pass the buck"?  How about $29,870.25 bucks?  That's money we could have used for something that would actually produce something tangible, not some pipe dream that no one seems to "give a poop about."

-JD- 

JFC, another fallacy! How is it possible that after I call baronn out for all his fallacious comments, you would come in here and expect to get away with the same. It's pathetic, do better. 

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(edited)

Can that last comment be deleted, format is all jacked up. 

 

Quote

What is the legal definition of embezzlement?

Embezzlement Law and Legal Definition. Embezzlement is the fraudulent appropriation of money by someone entrusted with it's care on behalf of other's. Embezzlement typically occurs in the employment and corporate settings.

I and I don't believe Skyfox are accusing the BOD (Deleted) of this at this time. However, to say the funds given for this "Project" wude fall under this description in a court of law wude not be a stretch. Because of the lack of any transparency of where those funds have gone and what they're being used (or are going to be used) for, by either of those parties does make you wonder what is really going on. Instead of choosing to give ANY updates on progress (or lack of),

First, I fixed your comment (highlighted part) to represent what skyfox said. Second, they said it amounts to embezzlement which is very accusatory in common parlance. 

I have to be blunt because you aren't getting it. MOD's if this is too far I apologize. Baronn, our ignorance of a topic does not mean there is something wrong. It means you are ignorant and do not have enough information to make a judgment. It is another fallacy and you continue to riddle this thread with these comments. I have pointed it out to you many times yet you keep doing it, you should be embarrassed about you inability to comprehend simple concepts about communication. 

Quote

they CHOOSE to not do that and instead, induct folks into a non-existing museum and continually ask for more funding. 

This one is a gem, you must be a troll, it is the only thing that makes sense, no one is this dense. They are inducting people into the hall of fame, not a museum. 

 

Quote

I have reached out to a few BOD members and I plan on calling the rest next week. I am hearing the same thing about dis-enchantment over lack of progress. From what I am being told, not a single member of the ISMHOF attended the BOD meeting this summer. Granted, they aren't required to be there. However, they are accepting funding for this and some effort from somebody from there, wude most certainly been welcome.

You seem to be able to learn. 

Quote

Now before anyone gets their shorts in a twist (again)  I have no ambition of getting anything for any effort I put into this. I have no intention of ever being mentioned in it If it ever gets built. I simply feel it's a sad day when so many members that shude be in it and some of their artifacts and contributions have nowhere to go at this time. Sad and wrong.

My shorts are twisted because of you apparent inability to structure an argument in a logical way. You're supposedly an educated adult, act like it.  

Quote

Something to think about, for a little bit more than what the USPA BOD has agreed to give to the ISMHOF, they cude have bought an R44 with a trailer and toterhome, found a retired heli pilot that wanted some adventure and sent that rig out over the year for members to enjoy. The lift tickets would easily support it. How Cool wude that be!

toterhome, heh, fun word. 

 

 

Baronn, I'm not trying to be mean, I seriously just do not understand. There are so many valid criticisms of the ISMHOF and so many valid way to present them. Why do you come in here and continue to use fallacious statement to do it when there is a proper way? I'm capable of rewriting what you have said in a logical way and I get what your point is. You should be able to do the same. 

Edited by meat.missile

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On 8/23/2019 at 1:33 AM, meat.missile said:

JFC, another fallacy! How is it possible that after I call baronn out for all his fallacious comments, you would come in here and expect to get away with the same. It's pathetic, do better. 

Is what I said a fallacy because you don't agree with it?  Or is there some valid reason why you think my comments amount to as much?  

Rather than use labels, why not open your mind a bit and engage in some meaningful discussion?

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(edited)
On 8/22/2019 at 10:57 PM, gowlerk said:
em·bez·zle·ment
/əmˈbezəlmənt/
noun
noun: embezzlement; plural noun: embezzlements
  1. theft or misappropriation of funds placed in one's trust or belonging to one's employer.
    "charges of fraud and embezzlement"

     

    I'm hoping that you merely don't understand the meaning of the word embezzlement and you don't really think the BoD and/or the people promoting the museum are thieves.

     

Lots of legal battles have been fought over similar scenarios.  Four cancer charities were taken to court in 2015 for misappropriating donations.  Government officials have also found themselves in deep water for the same.  So you don't have to steal money or be a thief for the act to meet that definition, only misuse it.  In this particular scenario, we have seen $87,000+ go into a project that has produced absolutely nothing over a long time period.  If the USPA isn't misusing these funds by blindly giving them to another organization to build something that has yet to materialize since 1999, where is the proof?  The BOD has kept largely mum about the accountability of those monies.  And then come the comments about the USPA not being responsible for donated funds.  Wrong.  Take a gander on a reputable, legal website and you'll find a plethora of examples where organizations were grilled about where their money went.

I've led large organizations for most of my professional life and money is something you must be careful with or people will grow suspicious and start pointing fingers.  At the very least, this situation amounts to a bad optic with disastrous potential.  

Why not spend that money on something that will actually benefit skydivers?  Like efforts to reduce canopy-related deaths or fighting to keep dropzones open at airports who have suddenly terminated their leases?  Our sport just saw yet another canopy-related death (see parachutist).  And several dropzones have been given the hook this year by their host airports.  Yes, there is money going into related counter-efforts, but not enough. 

The USPA also has a mandate to "promote our sport."  A museum that hasn't broken ground after five years and tens of thousands dollars isn't in keeping with that mandate.  I'd go one step further to say that most skydivers neither give a hoot about a museum, nor want one.  Our sport isn't on par with the likes of the NFL or NBA and much discussion about including several of our disciplines in the Olympics has thus far been for not.  We need to be more realistic about our sport's goals.  Why not promote it by funding AFF programs for college students - like I saw at one DZ a few years back - or something similar for service veterans with jump ratings to transfer to a civilian license after separation or retirement?  I've witnessed DZ's funding such programs in the past, but what about the USPA funding something similar on a larger scale?  

Thoughts?

Let's actually have a discussion about it rather than label one another.  As far as my vernacular goes; yes, I feel I've chosen the correct word in light of the known facts. 

Having said that, I'm open-minded to any proof (facts) anyone might have to the contrary.

-JD-

Edited by skyfox2007
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13 hours ago, skyfox2007 said:

As far as my vernacular goes; yes, I feel I've chosen the correct word in light of the known facts. 

 

13 hours ago, skyfox2007 said:

Having said that, I'm open-minded to any proof (facts) anyone might have to the contrary.

You are the one accusing people of being criminals. Give your head a shake. The burden of proof is on YOU, not the good people that you are blithely accusing of stealing from you. Do you have the guts to name the people you are calling thieves?  Or are you just talking out of your ass?

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19 hours ago, skyfox2007 said:

Why not promote it by funding AFF programs for college students

IMHO, I don't want to pay for college students to jump. They should be saving their pennies and learning how to make a living. Once they have some $ saved up, they can pay for their own damn jumps. I'd rather fund a museum.

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20 hours ago, skyfox2007 said:

- or something similar for service veterans with jump ratings to transfer to a civilian license after separation or retirement?  

Thoughts?

Let's actually have a discussion about it rather than label one another.  As far as my vernacular goes; yes, I feel I've chosen the correct word in light of the known facts. 

Having said that, I'm open-minded to any proof (facts) anyone might have to the contrary.

-JD-

NOW THIS I CAN GET BEHIND. I started my skydiving adventure thru my affiliation with the 82ND AIRBORNE back in the late 90's. There were at least two clubs on post, the Green Beret, and the 82ND free fall clubs. The clubs supported active duty members and there family members.

I can't thank the men who ran the club and all they did for me and the rest of us. Thank you.

THAT BEING SAID, I've heard(sadly) that these clubs no longer exist, AND THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

Simply for the NEED to have an outlet for all these men and service women returning from the field of battle, scared forever, carrying around that baggage and VERY much needing that HEALTHY OUTLET. 

 

So, there you have it. Scrap the four walls idea ALL TOGETHER, and put MY money where I want it. = BRING BACK/FUND MILITARY FREE FALL CLUBS.   

22 a day...   

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(edited)
On 8/30/2019 at 3:17 PM, skyfox2007 said:

Or is there some valid reason why you think my comments amount to as much?  

What you said is a fallacy because nowhere in my comment, or the context of my post, do I mention the opportunity cost of the money the USPA agreed to contribute. 

 

Quote

Is what I said a fallacy because you don't agree with it? 

I actually agree. Looking at the opportunity costs of the money would be a valid way to criticize the contribution. You can make your argument, you just don't get to make it as a counterpoint to an argument I never made, in the comment you replied to. 

 

Quote

Rather than use labels, why not open your mind a bit and engage in some meaningful discussion?

Fallacious arguments are invalid. The best way to engage in them is to point them out. If people want meaningful discussion the will keep it valid. 

End of the reply to you on this comment. 

------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I'm not worried about the small amount of my dues going to the project, it is actually such a small amount of my money it leads me not to care. I do believe (with my knowledge of the project that is based on the limited publicly available information) that the current plan is not the best idea. I think the ISMHOF should be incorporated into an already existing aviation museum as a permanent exhibit. This doesn't mean Barrons criticisms are valid, it just means that I think the ISMHOF should provide people with more information and/or reevaluate their plan. 

 

I know I may have been a little harsh with my comments but peoples inability to identify poor logic and maintain structured debate is part of the reason the country (US) is being torn apart. 

Edit: and failing to be consistent in criticism just because you agree with the end game of your "side" is hypocritical. 

Edited by meat.missile

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I am in favor of the museum and have donated personally.  When Bill Ottley was alive, I offered to donate land on my Airport for the museum.  One of the large DZ's may possibly be willing to build a hangar at their DZ for use as a museum.  I think the current plans are too grandiose, too expensive to construct and too expensive to maintain.  I like the idea of co-locating with another aviation museum.  As far as other locations are concerned, DeLand Airport would seem logical, large DZ, parachute equipment manufacturers, close to Daytona, not that far from Orlando tourist attractions.  Maybe some skydivers would be willing to volunteer to staff it.

 

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On 8/31/2019 at 2:20 PM, timski said:

NOW THIS I CAN GET BEHIND. I started my skydiving adventure thru my affiliation with the 82ND AIRBORNE back in the late 90's. There were at least two clubs on post, the Green Beret, and the 82ND free fall clubs. The clubs supported active duty members and there family members.

I can't thank the men who ran the club and all they did for me and the rest of us. Thank you.

THAT BEING SAID, I've heard(sadly) that these clubs no longer exist, AND THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

For the 50th anniversary of the Normandy invasion, we held an event where WWII vets could run through a static line program for next to nothing and make a jump on that day.  Most of them did OK, although it was effectively impossible to train them to arch.

It's something that almost any DZ can do.  You can meet the USPA requirements for a course fairly quickly as long as they come in with basic skills, and it's likely the DZO could find volunteers to teach and/or JM the students - thus reducing the cost tremendously.

This is getting pretty far from the topic, though, so maybe better to start a new thread on it.

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On 9/3/2019 at 2:43 PM, Bigfalls said:

I am in favor of the museum and have donated personally.  When Bill Ottley was alive, I offered to donate land on my Airport for the museum.  One of the large DZ's may possibly be willing to build a hangar at their DZ for use as a museum.  I think the current plans are too grandiose, too expensive to construct and too expensive to maintain.  I like the idea of co-locating with another aviation museum.  As far as other locations are concerned, DeLand Airport would seem logical, large DZ, parachute equipment manufacturers, close to Daytona, not that far from Orlando tourist attractions.  Maybe some skydivers would be willing to volunteer to staff it.

 

I'd be content to see a museum built for far less cost that the USPA is quoting, provided the USPA hold the museum builders accountable and the latter get a move on.  The delays aren't exactly inspiring any confidence.

But do you think our folks would be interested enough to spend the money to visit it?  I'm content to spend my money at the DZ on the weekends, not on a plane ticket to Florida.

-JD-

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(edited)
On 8/31/2019 at 9:19 AM, gowlerk said:

 

You are the one accusing people of being criminals. Give your head a shake. The burden of proof is on YOU, not the good people that you are blithely accusing of stealing from you. Do you have the guts to name the people you are calling thieves?  Or are you just talking out of your ass?

I stand by my opinion on this matter.  Five years, tens of thousands of dollars, and nothing. 

-JD-  

 

Edited by skyfox2007
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On 9/3/2019 at 4:14 AM, meat.missile said:

What you said is a fallacy because nowhere in my comment, or the context of my post, do I mention the opportunity cost of the money the USPA agreed to contribute. 

 

I actually agree. Looking at the opportunity costs of the money would be a valid way to criticize the contribution. You can make your argument, you just don't get to make it as a counterpoint to an argument I never made, in the comment you replied to. 

 

Fallacious arguments are invalid. The best way to engage in them is to point them out. If people want meaningful discussion the will keep it valid. 

End of the reply to you on this comment. 

------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I'm not worried about the small amount of my dues going to the project, it is actually such a small amount of my money it leads me not to care. I do believe (with my knowledge of the project that is based on the limited publicly available information) that the current plan is not the best idea. I think the ISMHOF should be incorporated into an already existing aviation museum as a permanent exhibit. This doesn't mean Barrons criticisms are valid, it just means that I think the ISMHOF should provide people with more information and/or reevaluate their plan. 

 

I know I may have been a little harsh with my comments but peoples inability to identify poor logic and maintain structured debate is part of the reason the country (US) is being torn apart. 

Edit: and failing to be consistent in criticism just because you agree with the end game of your "side" is hypocritical. 

Do you want to talk philosophy?  Or do you want to talk about the issue at hand?

And tens of thousands of dollars isn't a small amount of money.  Our not caring or not speaking up is probably why this happened in the first place.  

-JD-

Edited by skyfox2007
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7 hours ago, skyfox2007 said:

Do you want to talk philosophy?  Or do you want to talk about the issue at hand?

And tens of thousands of dollars isn't a small amount of money.  Our not caring or not speaking up is probably why this happened in the first place.  

-JD-

(Imagine face palm/head shake emojis) Just embarrassing.

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