Walmart shooting - El Paso

[BIGUN 1,053]

5 hours ago, normiss said:

Or you could read the rest of the paragraph.

The part where he explains that he did think about his kids. Like he wants others to be able to.

Brother, perhaps I should have expanded the point. When one hugs and looks their kids in the eye... How do you say, "the opposite of this is abortion?"  

[yobnoc 142]

5 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Brother, perhaps I should have expanded the point. When one hugs and looks their kids in the eye... How do you say, "the opposite of this is abortion?"  

I disagree with the premise.  The opposite is non-existence.  I can see what you're trying to do in the abstract here, but it kinda falls flat in practice.  You could use the same appeal to emotion by saying "the opposite of this is a condom." 

Question: why is everyone so focused on a heartbeat?

[BIGUN 1,053]

3 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

Question: why is everyone so focused on a heartbeat?

Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing. The heart stops. Then the beginning of life is... 

[yobnoc 142]

7 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing. The heart stops. Then the beginning of life is... 

I don't know.  And neither do you.  Since you brought up breathing (another vital function without which we cannot survive), the lungs aren't capable of inflating until ~week 25 of the gestational period.  On your logic, someone could argue that is the beginning of life, couldn't they? 

Which pretty much falls in line with the generally accepted term "viability."  The point at which a fetus could conceivably survive outside the womb. 

[mistercwood 287]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I am strictly opposed to abortion as a means of birth control AND to abortions after a heartbeat.

 

Just to be very clear here - do you mean once the heart is actually formed and functioning, or once we can hear a thing that *sounds* like a heartbeat but is in fact not remotely the same thing?

As far as I'm aware, every proposed "heartbeat" bill so far has been the latter, and is based on junk science to put a limit at an unreasonably early date.

[mistercwood 287]

*EDIT - double post.

Edited August 25, 2019 by mistercwood

[normiss 622]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Brother, perhaps I should have expanded the point. When one hugs and looks their kids in the eye... How do you say, "the opposite of this is abortion?"  

I've personally dealt with it.

When faced with similar situations, not everyone makes the same choices.

I'm thankful we live in a country where we can make our own choices. For most things anyway.

Our bodies should be ours to decide what happens to it.

[billvon 2,400]

4 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing. The heart stops. 

If your heart ever stops, you can be fairly sure people will put a lot of effort into restarting it and/or keeping you alive until someone else can restart it.  So that definition doesn't quite work (fortunately.)

On the other hand, most people consider a lack of almost all brain activity to be the end of the person's life.

[kallend 1,623]

10 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing. The heart stops. Then the beginning of life is... 

When the IRS recognizes your existence for tax purposes, since death and taxes are the only certainties in life.

[jakee 1,254]

10 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing. The heart stops. Then the beginning of life is... 

That’s the first line of the Wiki article on the subject. Very slightly further down in the article you find this; “cardiac arrest came to be called clinical death rather than simply death, to reflect the possibility of post-arrest resuscitation.”

 

Clinical death isn’t death, and meeting the defined parameters of clinical death doesn’t mean you are dead. If clinical death isn’t death, the opposite of clinical death isn’t life, and meeting the parameters in the opposite direction isn’t the point at which you become alive.

 

And even so, the definition you posted is a heartbeat and breathing. You could equally use your own argument in support of abortion up until the point of birth.

[gowlerk 1,912]

18 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I am strictly opposed to abortion as a means of birth control AND to abortions after a heartbeat.  And, in many cases, I think the man should have a choice also.    

At least you are honest and don't dance around. I am also an absolutist like you. But in the other direction. Abortion is strictly a matter between a woman and her doctor. Your opinion, strong as it is, should never be a factor.

[yoink 321]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

At least you are honest and don't dance around. I am also an absolutist like you. But in the other direction. Abortion is strictly a matter between a woman and her doctor. Your opinion, strong as it is, should never be a factor.

I agree.

How would it possibly work? The woman wants an abortion and the guy wants to keep the baby so the woman is forced to carry a foetus? It's not even remotely feasible.

What about the other way around? The woman wants to keep it but the guy wants an abortion so he gets total say over what happens with another persons' body? Again, utter nonsense.

 

As there is no possible way for the man to 'have a choice' then it's dangerous to even bring it up. The guy DOES have a choice. It comes before having unprotected sex. After that it's not up to him and shouldn't be.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

On 8/25/2019 at 8:18 AM, BIGUN said:

But, you're opposed to a "Ban" on abortions with a heartbeat? I'm not going to continue to flog this pony. I've had this debate with most on here for ~20 years. The point is; I; as a member of the right party have gone more than one step to address the left party's gun control platform. Yet the left is unwilling to budge on the abortion issue. Give your kids a hug tonight.   

Now I understand why the right is so opposed to abortions. They are afraid there won't be any people left to shoot.

Edited August 26, 2019 by SkyDekker

[BIGUN 1,053]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Now I understand hwy the right is so opposed to abortions. They are afraid there won't be any people left to shoot.

For the most part - you and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum, but your presentation here is less than I would expect from you.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

2 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

For the most part - you and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum, but your presentation here is less than I would expect from you.

Not sure what you expect when you want to tie abortion and gun control together. it is a silly argument, one that is based on a strawman to begin with. Very few, if any people are advocating for a full ban on guns. Most are looking for some kind of control, or restrictions on how to obtain and where to take the guns.

Hence, to state that you are only willing to talk gun control if people agree to an outright ban on abortion is not honest at all and simply meant to divert attention.

[rifleman 61]

The main problem with banning abortions after a heartbeat starts is that this usually occurs 22 days after conception and most women are unlikely to know if they're pregnant until at least 4-6 weeks. 

What about abortion following rape or incest? Or where the fetus is diagnosed as having a fatal genetic abnormality which would result in a woman being forced to carry a dead baby to term?

IMO many pro-lifers aren't really pro-life, they're just pro-birth. If they were serious about being pro-life, then they'd be working to make sure that there was provision for that child to be properly taken care of in a loving home, that they had access to a decent education and healthcare rather than washing their hands of the mother once she's given birth and calling her a scrounger.

[wmw999 2,121]

Bigun, am I right in assuming that you also consider unwanted births (which are the overwhelming reason for abortion) to be a problem also, or is it just abortion? I’m asking because, again, a rules-first approach is likely to have less effect than reducing the underlying problem. 

I will say that I think a heartbeat designation is too far in one direction, just as emergence from the birth canal is too far in the opposite direction. As has been mentioned, the heartbeat is really a surrogate now for brain function; they often go hand-in-hand, but that’s because stopping the heart stops the brain unless action is taken. Stopping the brain stops the reality of the person, leaving a shell (again, as far as I’m concerned). 

I’m not trying to call you or anyone else out, or anything like that in this discussion. I happen to think with all my heart that respect is key, and that respect belongs to the mother, the fetus, and the father. And it’s up to the parents to allocate the relative respect, based on what they think is important, and on medical advice. 

I also think deeply that a non-viable pregnancy should be eligible for termination when it’s discovered to be non-viable (with appropriate delay for discussion, second opinions, etc). 

When you consider that the single biggest cause of pregnant woman mortality in the US is murder (WebMD), it’s not surprising that some are concerned. 

The fetus is a potential; the adult is an actual. The adult has to sacrifice for a generation to bring that potential to full potential. 

Wendy P. 

[BIGUN 1,053]

7 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Bigun, am I right in assuming that you also consider unwanted births (which are the overwhelming reason for abortion) to be a problem also, or is it just abortion? I’m asking because, again, a rules-first approach is likely to have less effect than reducing the underlying problem. 

To all; I'm going to summarize almost all of your points into one response and then I'm done. 

First, I never said a "Ban" on abortions - I said "reduce." For me; the use of abortion as birth control is immoral. I support abortions for women whom have suffered with Domestic Violence (i.e, spousal physical abuse/rape/control), medical issues for both her and the fetus. You mention respect. You ever notice that men are all for abortion as a woman's right? I'll give you my opinion on that - it's because most men don't want to have to stare that responsibility in the face.  They just want to "Fuck & Flee."  There are a lot more men willing to accept their responsibility than the media would lead us to believe. When we have terminated the life of an unborn child simply because it's more convenient to our lives - then to me; we as a society have crumbled. 

I don't think there's anyone in this room that I've known for a long time (no matter what our differences) that would hesitate to protect a child from harm. If Bill & Amy left their children with us; it would be with the knowledge that if harm came to them - it's because I died trying to protect them. I take it a step further. I am willing to try to protect the unborn. The left is trying to protect children in schools. I agreed and leaned heavily that way. I want to protect those in the womb. I believe those who cannot speak need a stronger voice.   

I live with a medical professional (as does Bill), so I'm sure the household discussions have been as much as they have been in-depth. . I will agree that a blanket "Heartbeat Starts" is not the solution, but a solution that works for me until we have one better. We can debate the definition of "starts" ad nauseum as has been going on for decades, but it boils down to two things: Heart Death and/or Brain Death. For me, heart death works and so; heartbeat starts works. If as one poster states; there's a moving line for the definition of heartbeat (I am familiar), then the first step is to get the medical professionals to agree on what that "start" is. For me; start is the first heartbeat. 

I don't expect anyone to agree, disagree or even understand. It is my opinion.   

[wmw999 2,121]

Thanks. One has to listen to ones heart sometimes  

Wendy P. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

2 hours ago, rifleman said:

IMO many pro-lifers aren't really pro-life, they're just pro-birth.

Hi rifleman,

In the words of Jocelyn Elders:  'The Republican party loves the fetus & hates the child.'

Jerry Baumchen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joycelyn_Elders

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

52 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

The left is trying to protect children in schools. I agreed and leaned heavily that way. I want to protect those in the womb. 

Hi Keith,

We will have to disagree.  I do not define 'those' in the womb to be children.

Ever try to declare a fetus on your tax returns, me neither.

Jerry Baumchen

[DJL 232]

3 hours ago, rifleman said:

IMO many pro-lifers aren't really pro-life, they're just pro-birth. If they were serious about being pro-life, then they'd be working to make sure that there was provision for that child to be properly taken care of in a loving home, that they had access to a decent education and healthcare rather than washing their hands of the mother once she's given birth and calling her a scrounger.

This speaks to the conversation my girlfriend and I had last weekend, that one of the reasons an abortion is an attractive alternative is because as a society we are not supportive of pregnant women.  We used to kick them out of school if they became pregnant, we barely support them if they become pregnant while employed and we've created an evil caricature of a woman who receives social services because she's given birth and doesn't have the means to support herself.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

First, I never said a "Ban" on abortions - I said "reduce..."

 

...You ever notice that men are all for abortion as a woman's right? I'll give you my opinion on that - it's because most men don't want to have to stare that responsibility in the face... 

...I don't expect anyone to agree, disagree or even understand. It is my opinion.   

You say 'I don't want a ban', yet every single 'heartbeat' bill would ban abortions outside of a very early timeframe. Most women don't even realize they are pregnant before the 'heartbeat' (which isn't really a 'heart') is detectable. 
The "heartbeat bills" are a very sneaky way to ban almost all elective abortions. 

There are a lot of men against abortion. Many (not all) are the 'pregnant in the summer, barefoot in the winter' types. Others seem to be opposed to women having any personal freedom or rights at all. 

Many men who are opposed to abortion are also opposed to welfare, Head Start education, government run medical programs (medical care for poor, pregnant women), all that. They don't actually seem to care about the women or the kids.

9 minutes ago, DJL said:

This speaks to the conversation my girlfriend and I had last weekend, that one of the reasons an abortion is an attractive alternative is because as a society we are not supportive of pregnant women.  We used to kick them out of school if they became pregnant, we barely support them if they become pregnant while employed and we've created an evil caricature of a woman who receives social services because she's given birth and doesn't have the means to support herself.

A very scary fact that goes along with this is the simple fact that infant mortality rates have risen significantly in the US. So have maternal deaths during or shortly after childbirth. 

The numbers for white women & children is pretty stable, but the numbers for minorities have gone up by a pretty large amount.

[yoink 321]

On 8/26/2019 at 11:03 AM, BIGUN said:

To all; I'm going to summarize almost all of your points into one response and then I'm done. 

First, I never said a "Ban" on abortions - I said "reduce." For me; the use of abortion as birth control is immoral. I support abortions for women whom have suffered with Domestic Violence (i.e, spousal physical abuse/rape/control), medical issues for both her and the fetus. You mention respect. You ever notice that men are all for abortion as a woman's right? I'll give you my opinion on that - it's because most men don't want to have to stare that responsibility in the face.  They just want to "Fuck & Flee."  There are a lot more men willing to accept their responsibility than the media would lead us to believe. When we have terminated the life of an unborn child simply because it's more convenient to our lives - then to me; we as a society have crumbled. 

I don't think there's anyone in this room that I've known for a long time (no matter what our differences) that would hesitate to protect a child from harm. If Bill & Amy left their children with us; it would be with the knowledge that if harm came to them - it's because I died trying to protect them. I take it a step further. I am willing to try to protect the unborn. The left is trying to protect children in schools. I agreed and leaned heavily that way. I want to protect those in the womb. I believe those who cannot speak need a stronger voice.   

I live with a medical professional (as does Bill), so I'm sure the household discussions have been as much as they have been in-depth. . I will agree that a blanket "Heartbeat Starts" is not the solution, but a solution that works for me until we have one better. We can debate the definition of "starts" ad nauseum as has been going on for decades, but it boils down to two things: Heart Death and/or Brain Death. For me, heart death works and so; heartbeat starts works. If as one poster states; there's a moving line for the definition of heartbeat (I am familiar), then the first step is to get the medical professionals to agree on what that "start" is. For me; start is the first heartbeat. 

I don't expect anyone to agree, disagree or even understand. It is my opinion.   

What’s wrong with not wanting the responsibility? You say this like it’s some sort of awful thing.

 

When I was 22 a condom split. We absolutely weren’t ready for a child, hence the condom. KNOWING that, she took the morning after pill. (Is that an abortion?)

 

That is one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. And it is wholly linked to not wanting the responsibility.

 

 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, yoink said:

What’s wrong with not wanting the responsibility? You say this like it’s some sort of awful thing.

 

When I was 22 a condom split. We absolutely weren’t ready for a child, hence the condom. KNOWING that, she took the morning after pill. (Is that an abortion?)

 

That is one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. And it is wholly linked to not wanting the responsibility.

 

 

Seriously? Whatcha' make it out of, parachute silk?