BAN GARLIC

[kallend 1,622]

Clearly we aren't going to get any sensible gun laws all the while Republicans are in thrall to the NRA.

[brenthutch 383]

On 7/30/2019 at 9:25 AM, kallend said:

Clearly we aren't going to get any sensible gun laws all the while Republicans are in thrall to the NRA.

California doesn’t have sensible gun laws?

[kallend 1,622]

21 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

California doesn’t have sensible gun laws?

There's a state called "Nevada" with stupid gun laws, right next door.  That's where the garlic shooter bought his gun, legally.  

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/29/gilroy-shooting-us-gun-control-california

Thank you for making it so clear that action is needed on the federal level because state level gun laws are essentially useless.  Just as the NRA wants them to be.

[brenthutch 383]

But it was against the law to bring that gun into California.  Shouldn’t the law have stopped that? 

[billvon 2,391]

4 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

But it was against the law to bring that gun into California.  Shouldn’t the law have stopped that? 

Nope.  It's also against the law to shoot people.  He ignored that too.

Funny thing about criminals; they ignore the law.  Which is why it is a good idea (IMO) to make it harder for them to get guns to begin with.  A law that made it harder to get an AK-47 over the counter in Nevada could likely have prevented this shooting.  Or even a law that flagged him as a white supremacist, since the gun store owner stated he wouldn't have sold it to a white supremacist.

Or, to be fair, perhaps he would have killed even more people with a piece of garlic.  Or a spoon.  But odds are, he couldn't have pulled that off.

[brenthutch 383]

12 hours ago, billvon said:

Nope.  It's also against the law to shoot people.  He ignored that too.

Funny thing about criminals; they ignore the law. 

BINGO!

[kallend 1,622]

17 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

BINGO!

Following that logic ALL laws are redundant. Pretty stupid, even for you. 

[timski 80]

At the end of ever tragedy we ask the same questions, what was the motive and why??? What drives people to kill others(for no obvious reason)?  

One would immediately think, CRAZY, insane, off the rocker, or JUST NOT RIGHT, right? Mental health issues... But we keep looking at the wrong issue of "controlling" physical items, ie firearms in stead of managing the people who wheeled them... That is SIMPLY not the right option. That being said, YES, WE NEED MUCH TIGHTER GUN CONTROL measures for the purchase of... You can't fix crazy, but you can recognize and acknowledge it and keep a tight(er) leash on it...  

Never think for a second that Americans would give up there guns that we currently own. We all know how that would play out... 

Take my next statement to heart, "This is the world we live in, live accordingly."  It's a dangerous world out there, Be prepared for it.  

[GeorgiaDon 340]

 

 

5 hours ago, timski said:

At the end of ever tragedy we ask the same questions, what was the motive and why??? What drives people to kill others(for no obvious reason)?  

One would immediately think, CRAZY, insane, off the rocker, or JUST NOT RIGHT, right? Mental health issues... But we keep looking at the wrong issue of "controlling" physical items, ie firearms in stead of managing the people who wheeled them... That is SIMPLY not the right option. That being said, YES, WE NEED MUCH TIGHTER GUN CONTROL measures for the purchase of... You can't fix crazy, but you can recognize and acknowledge it and keep a tight(er) leash on it...  

Never think for a second that Americans would give up there guns that we currently own. We all know how that would play out... 

Take my next statement to heart, "This is the world we live in, live accordingly."  It's a dangerous world out there, Be prepared for it.  

So, then, why did Trump and the Republican Party repeal the law that required people with certain mental health issues to be reported to the database that is used for federal background checks?  The law had required that people who are so mentally ill that they are on disability, and also have been ruled by the courts to be unable to manage their own affairs so they have to have someone else manage those disability payments, be reported to the database.  Since the repeal, which was promoted by the NRA and enthusiastically backed by the Republican party, people who cannot be trusted with a credit card or checkbook must be trusted with any legal firearm.  That's crazy!

Also, what do you mean by " "This is the world we live in, live accordingly."  It's a dangerous world out there, Be prepared for it."  Does that mean be prepared to shoot first and ask questions later?  Or does it mean "Prepare to die at any instant, such as while watching a movie, listening to a concert, enjoying a food festival, etc?  Or maybe it means "hide in your house and let crazy people with guns run amuck".

"This is the world we live in" was the refrain of those who supported all kinds of social atrocities, such as Jim Crow laws.  "If you don't like it, move somewhere else".  How about asking why this is the world we live in, if the world could be a better place, and if so why not change the rules to make it better.

 

Don

[kallend 1,622]

7 hours ago, timski said:

 

Take my next statement to heart, "This is the world we live in, live accordingly."  It's a dangerous world out there, Be prepared for it.  

Funny that other developed countries that are part of this world don't seem to have anything like so many homicides, mass shootings, or children shooting and maiming themselves or others. 

Maybe it's American Exceptionalism - we are just nastier than other western nations.

[brenthutch 383]

20 hours ago, billvon said:

 

20 hours ago, billvon said:

 

 A law that made it harder to get an AK-47 over the counter in Nevada could likely have prevented this shooting.  

 

Given that it was an SKS (a non scary looking wooden stocked rifle with an internal non detachable magazine) I doubt that a ban on AKs would have made a difference 

[billvon 2,391]

5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Given that it was an SKS (a non scary looking wooden stocked rifle with an internal non detachable magazine) I doubt that a ban on AKs would have made a difference 

Perhaps.  I will go with the opinion of the guy who sold him the gun over yours, though.

[timski 80]

1 hour ago, GeorgiaDon said:

 

 

So, then, why did Trump and the Republican Party repeal the law that required people with certain mental health issues to be reported to the database that is used for federal background checks?  The law had required that people who are so mentally ill that they are on disability, and also have been ruled by the courts to be unable to manage their own affairs so they have to have someone else manage those disability payments, be reported to the database.  Since the repeal, which was promoted by the NRA and enthusiastically backed by the Republican party, people who cannot be trusted with a credit card or checkbook must be trusted with any legal firearm.  That's crazy!

Also, what do you mean by " "This is the world we live in, live accordingly."  It's a dangerous world out there, Be prepared for it."  Does that mean be prepared to shoot first and ask questions later?  Or does it mean "Prepare to die at any instant, such as while watching a movie, listening to a concert, enjoying a food festival, etc?  Or maybe it means "hide in your house and let crazy people with guns run amuck".

"This is the world we live in" was the refrain of those who supported all kinds of social atrocities, such as Jim Crow laws.  "If you don't like it, move somewhere else".  How about asking why this is the world we live in, if the world could be a better place, and if so why not change the rules to make it better.

 

Don

Dear Don, just because "we" don't like living with the constant threat of "bad people", the FACT remains, they aren't going away, just like ALL THE GUNS. 

Dude, this is REALITY, deal with the situation around YOU. If YOU decide to cower under the table and piss your self like a beaten puppy, THAT is YOUR option. 

I choose to live in a rural farm like community surrounded by "GOD fearing types" where we wave at one another and give away our extra produce and live a pretty fucking good life. That my friend is MY choice. 

I know what direction my moral compass points. 

The moral of my comments are simple, know what evil is out there. Complacency is death. You don't have to like it, but what I say rings VERY true.  There are too many who give ZERO regard about/for your well being and are ready to take it ALL from you. 

Die like a good scout, prepared. 

[timski 80]

31 minutes ago, kallend said:

Funny that other developed countries that are part of this world don't seem to have anything like so many homicides, mass shootings, or children shooting and maiming themselves or others. 

Maybe it's American Exceptionalism - we are just nastier than other western nations.

overwhelming ignorance of the general population...

[Coreece 190]

On 7/30/2019 at 1:25 PM, kallend said:

BAN GARLIC

That's fine, I can make do with shallots.

[brenthutch 383]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Perhaps.  I will go with the opinion of the guy who sold him the gun over yours, though.

I am unfamiliar with exactly what you are referring to.  The difference between an AK and an SKS are not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.

[normiss 622]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

That's fine, I can make do with shallots.

Slightly more bitter to me.

[kallend 1,622]

3 hours ago, timski said:

overwhelming ignorance of the general population...

Education cures ignorance.  So we need to fix our education system too.

[billvon 2,391]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

I am unfamiliar with exactly what you are referring to.  The difference between an AK and an SKS are not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.

I am going by his words.  He said "I would never ever sell any firearm to anyone who acted wrong or looks associated with any bad group like white power."  So good for him.  But that information was not available to him, and the law did not require any checking.

[kallend 1,622]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

I am unfamiliar with exactly what you are referring to.  The difference between an AK and an SKS are not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.

According to the police it was a WASR-10
 

AK47 - WASR 10 - 7.62X39MM - SEMI AUTO - KALASHNIKOV

Century Arms AK 47 WASR 10 Rifle, 7.62x39mm semi auto , These are a great Economical NEW imported AK47 rifle from Romania. Features 16 inch chrome lined hammer forged barrel with removable flash hider/brake, side mount scope rail for mounting optics, and a nice quality wood stock set. Comes with 1- 30 round AK47 magazine (Mag Type/style might Vary). If you are looking for a great starter AK47 Kalashnikov style rifle at great price this is a fantastic option. They are imported from Romania and backed up by a 1 year factory warranty. Important Product Notes :: Rifle will come with a cleaning rod , Stock sets may vary in color & may be a mixture of laminate or solid wood . Wood color may vary from piece to piece on the gun , Sorry no hand select or custom request offered .

[Coreece 190]

At the end of the day we can't expect Nevada to fix California's significant gun problem in places like the S.F Bay area.  

Rather than repeat myself ad nauseam, the following quotes from recent reports on "A Case Study in Hope," pretty much support the gist of what I've been saying on this subject for the last several years or so:

 

• "The majority of America’s gun homicide victims are black, killed in everyday shootings in segregated, economically struggling neighborhoods in cities such as Oakland and Richmond. It’s this everyday toll of violence, not mass shooting casualties, that drives America’s gun homicide rate 25 times higher than those of other wealthy countries."

 

• “We have to extend the idea of what public safety is beyond policing and incarceration, to include these things like intervention, outreach and neighborhood empowerment. . .That’s the game changer. That’s the difference-maker.”

 

• "In 2012, city leaders launched Oakland Ceasefire, a violence reduction initiative that formed an ongoing partnership between community members, social service providers and law enforcement officials.

 

• In August 2018, lead criminologist Anthony Braga and his team of researchers released results of their Ceasefire analysis and found that the initiative is associated with an estimated 31.5% reduction in the city’s gun homicides. The city recorded 68 killings last year, Oakland’s lowest number of homicides in nearly two decades and a nearly 50% reduction from 2012"

 

• “Few of the laws enacted in the last 10 years would have been expected to entirely explain the significant reductions in the Bay Area. . .It was investment in local prevention strategies in Oakland, Richmond and San Francisco that was likely the “key change” that most significantly drove the recent 30% drop in gun homicides"

 

• “The common context among each of these cities – Richmond, Oakland, and San Francisco – is that they have adopted community-driven, non-law enforcement approaches, and they’ve been robustly funded”

 

• “In Oakland, we’ve embraced the notion that we can’t arrest our way out of the gun violence epidemic,” Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf said in a statement. “Instead, we looked at who was actually most at risk of engaging in violence, and worked together as a community to open a new door for them.”

 

• "better analysis of who’s behind the violence has helped law enforcement, social services and community groups intervene more effectively. In Oakland, for example, a 2017 study of every homicide that occurred over 18 months showed that only 0.16% of Oakland’s population, about 700 high-risk men, were responsible for the majority of the homicides."

 

• "Oakland Unite, a division of the city’s Human Services Department, is a network of community-based organizations that provides resources to people at high risk of becoming victims or perpetrators of violence. Those resources include intensive mentoring, economic and educational training, and assistance for victims of a variety of violence, not just gun violence."

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oakland-california-decrease-gun-violence_n_5cf6d690e4b02b1bef0900f4?guccounter=1

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2019/jun/03/gun-violence-bay-area-drop-30-percent-why-investigation

 

[headoverheels 291]

6 hours ago, Coreece said:

That's fine, I can make do with shallots.

Then you can get by with only single shot shotguns too.

[kallend 1,622]

5 hours ago, Coreece said:

At the end of the day we can't expect Nevada to fix California's significant gun problem in places like the S.F Bay area.  

Rather than repeat myself ad nauseam, the following quotes from recent reports on "A Case Study in Hope," pretty much support the gist of what I've been saying on this subject for the last several years or so:

 

• "The majority of America’s gun homicide victims are black, killed in everyday shootings in segregated, economically struggling neighborhoods in cities such as Oakland and Richmond. It’s this everyday toll of violence, not mass shooting casualties, that drives America’s gun homicide rate 25 times higher than those of other wealthy countries."

 

• “We have to extend the idea of what public safety is beyond policing and incarceration, to include these things like intervention, outreach and neighborhood empowerment. . .That’s the game changer. That’s the difference-maker.”

 

• "In 2012, city leaders launched Oakland Ceasefire, a violence reduction initiative that formed an ongoing partnership between community members, social service providers and law enforcement officials.

 

• In August 2018, lead criminologist Anthony Braga and his team of researchers released results of their Ceasefire analysis and found that the initiative is associated with an estimated 31.5% reduction in the city’s gun homicides. The city recorded 68 killings last year, Oakland’s lowest number of homicides in nearly two decades and a nearly 50% reduction from 2012"

 

• “Few of the laws enacted in the last 10 years would have been expected to entirely explain the significant reductions in the Bay Area. . .It was investment in local prevention strategies in Oakland, Richmond and San Francisco that was likely the “key change” that most significantly drove the recent 30% drop in gun homicides"

 

• “The common context among each of these cities – Richmond, Oakland, and San Francisco – is that they have adopted community-driven, non-law enforcement approaches, and they’ve been robustly funded”

 

• “In Oakland, we’ve embraced the notion that we can’t arrest our way out of the gun violence epidemic,” Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf said in a statement. “Instead, we looked at who was actually most at risk of engaging in violence, and worked together as a community to open a new door for them.”

 

• "better analysis of who’s behind the violence has helped law enforcement, social services and community groups intervene more effectively. In Oakland, for example, a 2017 study of every homicide that occurred over 18 months showed that only 0.16% of Oakland’s population, about 700 high-risk men, were responsible for the majority of the homicides."

 

• "Oakland Unite, a division of the city’s Human Services Department, is a network of community-based organizations that provides resources to people at high risk of becoming victims or perpetrators of violence. Those resources include intensive mentoring, economic and educational training, and assistance for victims of a variety of violence, not just gun violence."

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/oakland-california-decrease-gun-violence_n_5cf6d690e4b02b1bef0900f4?guccounter=1

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2019/jun/03/gun-violence-bay-area-drop-30-percent-why-investigation

 

As always, totally ignoring the 900lb gorilla in the room while blaming everything else.

It's not like other western nations don't have the same social problems we have, while having murder rates (and non-lethal injury rates) a fraction of ours.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

As always, totally ignoring the 900lb gorilla in the room while blaming everything else.

It's not like other western nations don't have the same social problems we have, while having murder rates (and non-lethal injury rates) a fraction of ours.

“Another example of your talent for drawing incorrect conclusions from available data.“

News flash, we (the United States) are not just like “other western nations.  We are unique.  Our problem are different as are our solutions (as Coreece’s article clearly illustrates).

I understand why this is difficult to understand and unnerving to the liberal/progressive mind.

1.  It does not involve the expansion of government control over the populace 

2.  It works

Edited August 2, 2019 by brenthutch

[kallend 1,622]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

“Another example of your talent for drawing incorrect conclusions from available data.“

News flash, we (the United States) are not just like “other western nations.  We are unique.  Our problem are different as are our solutions (as Coreece’s article clearly illustrates).

I understand why this is difficult to understand and unnerving to the liberal/progressive mind.

1.  It does not involve the expansion of government control over the populace 

2.  It works

If "it works" explain carefully why every other western nation has a far lower murder rate than we do, longer life expectancy, and lower infant and maternal mortality rates.