Go back to where you came from

[yobnoc 142]

13 minutes ago, Rick said:

sorry Joe I need to work on developing a thicker skin and not take things so personal.

Bill I see where you are coming from now. I have tried recently to be more active on here so I can tell all you where I am coming from, and to try to understand other view points. For instance I have changed my position on the death penalty by reading what people on this forum have to say.

Mark I hope that (yet) doesn't mean you are going to stop being my friend. :).

Gowlerk I think the first thing that turned me away from Hillary is that we elected Bill. But it seemed that she immediately became a force in politics. Most other first ladies had there causes that they championed but it seemed she had more power than deserved. The 2 of them have made a good living out of being politicians and for some reason (I think Nigel hit on it) it turned me off that she took the power and ran with it and I did not see her doing it because she had the best interest of the country. I think she is mostly self serving. 

Having said that I can see how the media and not getting out of your bubble of friends that hold a certain opinion could cloud ones judgement .

I hope this makes sense to you all. It would be so much easier if we were sitting in a bar over a beer and having this discussion. 

It's a very uncomfortable feeling to admit to one's self that they got conned, no matter how big or small the issue.  It seems like you have identified several areas where you had inadequate information and in hindsight you recognize those areas and want to do better.  The discomfort of looking inward and admitting you may have been wrong about something dissuades a lot of folks from reflecting. 

I think the quote is from Bertrand Russel, and I've seen variations of it so I'm not sure which is the true quote, but it goes something like: "The problem with the world today is that the stupid are cocksure and the wise are riddled with doubt."

I fear we've tipped the scales in this country toward the stupid side. 

But I'm heartened to see this exchange, even if you'd still make the same decision again, at least now you've identified that some of the reasons you made that decision were somewhat poorly informed.  I try to believe as many true things as possible while withholding belief on as many false or unverifiable things as possible.  Sometimes I fail, but I always try to let the data lead me rather than the other way around, and I try to identify propaganda and dismiss it no matter where it's coming from.

[yoink 321]

27 minutes ago, Rick said:

sorry Joe I need to work on developing a thicker skin and not take things so personal.

Bill I see where you are coming from now. I have tried recently to be more active on here so I can tell all you where I am coming from, and to try to understand other view points. For instance I have changed my position on the death penalty by reading what people on this forum have to say.

Mark I hope that (yet) doesn't mean you are going to stop being my friend. :).

Gowlerk I think the first thing that turned me away from Hillary is that we elected Bill. But it seemed that she immediately became a force in politics. Most other first ladies had there causes that they championed but it seemed she had more power than deserved. The 2 of them have made a good living out of being politicians and for some reason (I think Nigel hit on it) it turned me off that she took the power and ran with it and I did not see her doing it because she had the best interest of the country. I think she is mostly self serving. 

Having said that I can see how the media and not getting out of your bubble of friends that hold a certain opinion could cloud ones judgement .

I hope this makes sense to you all. It would be so much easier if we were sitting in a bar over a beer and having this discussion. 

This is the best kind of discourse I’ve seen in here in a while.

 

Please do keep posting here

[yoink 321]

.

Edited July 20, 2019 by yoink

[yoink 321]

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Edited July 20, 2019 by yoink

[Rick 67]

10 minutes ago, yoink said:

This is the best kind of discourse I’ve seen in here in a while.

 

Please do keep posting here

I used to be a major lurker. Or I guess I lurked here and posted in bonfire or events. I think reading here views on events  as they happen may have given me a bit of a more rounded perspective. Yobnoc you are correct about the embarrassment when your realize you did not make the wisest choices and that can definitely make someone defensive. I think that is where a lot of the divisiveness we see in our country now may come from. If you get defensive enough from not admitting when you are wrong it can make you double down on  the very thing you are wrong about. Ha I hope I explained that in a way you all can understand.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Rick

[JoeWeber 2,299]

7 minutes ago, Rick said:

I used to be a major lurker. Or I guess I lurked here and posted in bonfire or events. I think reading here views on events  as they happen may have given me a bit of a more rounded perspective. Yobnoc you are correct about the embarrassment when your realize you did not make the wisest choices and that can definitely make someone defensive. I think that is where a lot of the divisiveness we see in our country now may come from. If you get defensive enough from not admitting when you are wrong it can make you double down on  the very thing you are wrong about. Ha I hope I explained that in a way you all can understand.

Seriously, you have my admiration. I hope I can show the same level of insight and humility if I'm ever wrong

[jakee 1,254]

On 7/18/2019 at 10:40 PM, BIGUN said:

Sorry for the delay. I had to fact check it and you're right. It was Emerald Robinson. And, you're also right that sometimes it gets hard to defend some one or thing when they're stepping on their dicks. I'm scratching my head wondering what in the fuck was she thinking. The other day, I was angry at the liberals. In the last five minutes; I got angry at the conservatives.  

But you're still not scratching your head womdering what he was thinking?

[Erroll 49]

15 hours ago, kallend said:

His contempt for the truth is matched only by his contempt for the intelligence of his loyal base.

I have been following this saga closely (as closely as I can from here), and I can't help but to equate the Trump supporters to the people who flock to WWF tournaments, and get all worked up and emotional and vocal about fights which they must surely know are staged and fake? (Unless they are really, really stupid)

[nigel99 143]

26 minutes ago, Erroll said:

I have been following this saga closely (as closely as I can from here), and I can't help but to equate the Trump supporters to the people who flock to WWF tournaments, and get all worked up and emotional and vocal about fights which they must surely know are staged and fake? (Unless they are really, really stupid)

So you think all the Trump drama is staged?

[Erroll 49]

9 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

So you think all the Trump drama is staged?

No, I think those Trump supporters I saw chanting, are not very bright, and were easily manipulated by him.

[gowlerk 1,910]

2 hours ago, Erroll said:

No, I think those Trump supporters I saw chanting, are not very bright, and were easily manipulated by him.

If you are going to compare his rallies to WWF events you have to say entertained rather than manipulated or fooled. And I do believe his strongest attraction is his ability to entertain. The same reason some people enjoyed his reality TV show.

[ryoder 1,382]

Man Creates GoFundMe so Racists Can Send Him Back to Africa

https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/man-creates-gofundme-so-racists-can-send-him-back-to-af-1790888702

[jclalor 12]

On 7/16/2019 at 5:02 PM, kallend said:

by David Leonhardt:

His real estate company tried to avoid renting apartments to African-American tenants. He described “laziness” as “a trait in blacks.” He called for five black and Latino teenagers to be executed — and then insisted on their guilt even after DNA evidence proved their innocence.

He rose to prominence in the Republican Party by questioning the citizenship of the first black president. He launched his presidential campaign by saying Mexican immigrants were “rapists.” His political organization created a television advertisement that Fox News pulled for being too racist.

He frequently criticizes prominent African-Americans for being unpatriotic, ungrateful, disrespectful or unintelligent. He mocks Native Americans and uses anti-Semitic stereotypes. He retweets white nationalists. He said that a violent white supremacist march included some “very fine people.” He regularly appoints people with a history of racist comments.

And over the weekend, he told four nonwhite members of Congress — all citizens, of course, and three of them born in the United States — to “go back” to where they came from.

President Trump doesn’t just make racist comments. He is a racist. He’s proven it again and again, over virtually his entire time as a public figure. His bigotry is a core part of his worldview, and it’s been central to his political rise.

Anyone who claims otherwise — like Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin; Senator Steve Daines of Montana; Marc Short, the vice president’s chief of staff — is simply enabling his hate. (Mnuchin now has a pattern of defending racism, as a way of pleasing his boss.)

You forgot about his Hispanic judge in his Trump University civil case. He claimed he could never get a fair trial from a “Mexican” judge.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

5 hours ago, Erroll said:

No, I think those Trump supporters I saw chanting, are not very bright, and were easily manipulated by him.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the democracy line:

Rep. Ilhan Omar, one of the freshman Democratic congresswomen facing attacks from President Trump and his supporters, was cheered as she arrived back at her home district in Minnesota on Thursday.

A crowd of people at the airport in the Twin Cities held banners with slogans such as "Stop Racism Now" and chanted "Welcome home Ilhan" as the congresswoman emerged from her flight.

 

[RonD1120 58]

On 7/20/2019 at 5:34 AM, Erroll said:

I have been following this saga closely (as closely as I can from here), and I can't help but to equate the Trump supporters to the people who flock to WWF tournaments, and get all worked up and emotional and vocal about fights which they must surely know are staged and fake? (Unless they are really, really stupid)

Your comment is quite amusing.

The progressive liberal socialist Democratic Party is in turmoil because they believe we are ignorant. 

[gowlerk 1,910]

2 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

Your comment is quite amusing.

The progressive liberal socialist Democratic Party is in turmoil because they believe we are ignorant. 

Ron, the "morally superior" progressive forces believe you are unenlightened, which is different from ignorant. Of course they are wrong, you are neither. Right and left are the yin and yang of society. They must always be in balance. They stay in balance by shifting their meanings. America is a force for progress in the world, conservatives resist because they must. Not out of ignorance, but out of fear. Society needs fearful inward looking people like you to keep the balance. Change comes slowly, but is inexorable. Your tribe will survive woman's rights and gay marriage, and racial integration and all the other fearful changes that scare you. Remember, America is the original Liberal Democracy.

Edited July 21, 2019 by gowlerk

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Ron, the "morally superior" progressive forces believe you are unenlightened, which is different from ignorant. Of course they are wrong, you are neither. Right and left are the yin and yang of society. They must always be in balance. They stay in balance by shifting their meanings. America is a force for progress in the world, conservatives resist because they must. Not out of ignorance, but out of fear. Society needs fearful inward looking people like you to keep the balance. Change comes slowly, but is inexorable. Your tribe will survive woman's rights and gay marriage, and racial integration and all the other fearful changes that scare you. Remember, America is the original Liberal Democracy.

Holy Moly Ken, no need to go all linear ego over this. Let's just leave it to Ron to define the group his "we" includes but there is no doubt he is as ignorant as he believes we believe. He is also, deluded, credulous and blindered. None of which is to say he is without some smarts. After all, he easily trolls plenty of people here who definitely have smarts. He's also a master of secret messaging. For example, did you know that Linear Ego is an anagram of Orange Lie? He's tricky, too.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

On 7/19/2019 at 8:59 AM, Rick said:

I see so much waste of time/money with our government. I thought perhaps someone from the business sector may be able to get some of that under control.  

Except that a government and a business are simply not the same thing. A government shouldn't be run as a profit centre.

[kallend 1,623]

On 7/19/2019 at 10:59 AM, Rick said:

I see so much waste of time/money with our government. I thought perhaps someone from the business sector may be able to get some of that under control.  

So why vote for a guy who managed to bankrupt a CASINO and screw over his investors, and commit provable fraud with another of his ventures?

[Rick 67]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Except that a government and a business are simply not the same thing. A government shouldn't be run as a profit centre.

I was thinking more controlling cost. That is a very important component to running a business.

[Rick 67]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

So why vote for a guy who managed to bankrupt a CASINO and screw over his investors, and commit provable fraud with another of his ventures?

I honestly have no answer for you. I did what I thought was right and now I see it was not the best decision. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

not the best decision. 

Hi Rick,

Good for you.

We all make mistakes in life; c'est la vie.

IMO the real issue is do we learn from those mistakes or not.

While Hillary was far from my choice as the Dem candidate, I knew enough about Trump to know that he is a rotten, vile person who I would not vote for as Dog Turd Catcher.

Jerry Baumchen

[SkyDekker 1,121]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

I was thinking more controlling cost. That is a very important component to running a business.

Controlling the cost to boost profit. Profit shouldn't be a motivator for running a government.

Mind you Trump isn't known for his cost conscientiousness either. He tends to control costs by simply not paying. Secondly, don't think a guy known for gold toilets is really that focused on costs.

[Rick 67]

5 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Profit shouldn't be a motivator for running a government.

you can say that as many times as you want but controlling costs stands alone for whatever reason you are doing it. 

controlling spending should be a motivator whether it is to increase your bottom line or save the tax payers money

[SkyDekker 1,121]

18 minutes ago, Rick said:

you can say that as many times as you want but controlling costs stands alone for whatever reason you are doing it. 

controlling spending should be a motivator whether it is to increase your bottom line or save the tax payers money

But that is exactly where I am disagreeing with you. Ford Motor company is in the business of making profit for their shareholders. They do that by building cars as cheaply, and selling them as expensive as possible. If they can develop another line of business they will explore that, to make more profit. In other words, the work is only done to achieve the goal of making money.

In the public sector, the work is the goal. The work can only really slightly change and that change shouldn't be driven by profitability motives. In other words, it is an entirely different way from looking at something than a businessman would look at it. 

I mean, it would be entirely cheaper to have military uniforms designed and manufactured in Vietnam or Bangladesh. It would be entirely cheaper to outsource homeland security call centres to India. But then, costs shouldn't be the main driver for these decisions. Actually costs should only be a consideration once the entire scope has been decided.