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nigel99

Go back to where you came from

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2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

1. I do not think Trump's tweet was racist - to him or anyone else that grew up in NYC at that time. In the mid 60's to early 70's ('72 to be exact)

There's no picture you can paint or tale you can weave that alleviates the inherent racism in any version of the phrase "Go back to were you came from."

While I get the context of giving your neighbor shit and the endearing exchanges over the differences in your ethnic backgrounds you're talking about a colloquialism that simply doesn't apply to the contentious interactions between a sitting President and his political rivals.

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2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I've added a number to each point, so I can address each. 

1. I do not think Trump's tweet was racist - to him or anyone else that grew up in NYC at that time. In the mid 60's to early 70's ('72 to be exact); I lived in Flushing NYC near 160th Street. I; of Sicilian descent. We lived in a pocket in Queens near Francis Lewis HS on the corner of Jamaica. that was predominantly Sicilian. The entire area has numerous pockets of ethnicity.

After the 1970s, as housing prices began to tumble, many Hispanic such as Salvadorans, Colombians, Dominicans, and West Indian immigrants moved in. These ethnic groups tended to stay more towards the Jamaica Avenue and South Jamaica areas. Immigration from other countries did not become widespread until the late 1990s and early 2000s. Gentrification and decrease in crime attracted many families to Jamaica's safe havens; Hillside Avenue reflects this trend. Along 150th to 161st streets, much of the stores and restaurants typify South American and Caribbean cultures.

Farther east is the rapidly growing East Indian community. Mainly spurred on by the Jamaica Muslim Center, Bangladeshis have flocked to this area due to easy transit access and the numerous Bangladeshi stores and restaurants lining 167th and 168th Streets. Bangladeshis are the most rapidly growing ethnic group here; however, it is also an African-American commercial area. Many Sri Lankans also live in this area for similar reasons as the Bangladeshi community, reflected by the numerous food and grocery establishments along Hillside Avenue catering to the community. As well as the large South Asian community, significant Filipino and African communities thrive in Jamaica, along with the neighboring Filipino community in Queens Village and the historic, well established African-American community residing in Jamaica. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica,_Queens

And, the article leaves out a large population of Armenians. This too; is close to where Trump grew up. Except he lived in Jamaica Estates. The rich neighborhood. A quasi-gated community at that time. Not so much for its physical barriers as social barriers. You didn't go there for two reasons, 1) it reminded you of how poor you were, and 2) they had their own "police force." 

It was in this area that everyone self-identified by race. Francis Lewis HS was the center of the ethnic universe. Each ethnicity grouped together as cliques at school. In that; associations, relationships, friendships and even marriages crossed ethnic lines. We had friends like, "Charlie the Kike" (if you didn't call him that - he got mad.), "the Mick, the WOP, the Spook, the Spic, the Dot," it went on and on.  

These were not derogatory remarks, but badges of ethnic honor. And, if you really wanted a dose of ethnicity - you went down to main street where every vendor along Main Street was from a different country. You could literally go from the Bangladesh diner to a Jewish Bakery in two steps. And, next door to them was the Italian Deli. The Indian hardware store, the Pakistani plumber ("You come from a fucking shithole country, how the fuck did you become a plumber when you got no fucking plumbing in your own country," "Fuck you and YOUR shithole country") But, he was the guy you called when you needed plumbing work done. Joe from Sicily went on to marry Marie from Armenia. Both of whom met in Junior HS and are still married to this day. They both caught shit for "marrying outside their race." From their own families. But, it wasn't mean or vindictive. You gave them, "Shit."

While we learned to "relate" with the differing ethnic groups - there were times things got heated. And, it generally ended in "Go back to where you fucking came from you [xxxxethnicxxx] prick motherfucker."

It could have meant your country, but it could have meant your neighborhood. It all depended on the level of intensity, anger and curse words used. You knew which one it meant based on those factors. And, that's what Trump meant. And, Dr. Kraut agrees. 

Alan Kraut, a scholar at American University who is writing a history of anti-immigrant feeling in the U.S., says he saw this kind of thing play out firsthand when he was a child growing up in the Bronx.

"When kids had a fight in the street and the kids were from different ethnic groups, one kid would often say to the other: 'You and your parents go back where you came from,' " Kraut recalls.

"You know, it could mean Brooklyn. But it could also mean go back where you came from — you know, Russian Jews who came to the United States, southern Italians who came to the United States, Puerto Ricans newly arrived," he continues. "So when this came out of the mouth of this president who's from Queens, it sounded almost like a child saying that in my memory on the streets of New York."

2. ". . . racism is the sole providence of a particular political party or ideology." That was not the intent. The intent was - the Democratic Party, the Liberal Ideology cannot throw rocks in any direction without hitting their own current and history of racism. 

3.  "Anyone can be racist, it’s just particularly alarming when it’s the president of the US." Two parts: Implicit Bias doesn't make you racist. Our inherent response mechanisms were programmed long ago; implicit biases are reactionary, volatile, and part of our subconscious. Having attitudes towards people or associate stereotypes is not racism. I'll let you research this. 

3.1 "... alarming when it’s the president of the US" He's not racist as much as he's being labeled as racist. 

In the end, everyone has implicit bias. I do grow tired and sometimes angry at the "labelling" of others in society as racist. Everyone and everything gets a label now. And, everyone has to live up to it or fight against it. It's kinda like, "there's seven types of ADD; which one are you?" Even within cultures; there's subcultures - which one are you? There's 200+ dialects of German; which one are you? There's varying scales of darkness on the latino scale; which one are you?

It gets really old.  Sorry for the "longness" of the rant.       

     

Totally.  I can definitely see Trump engaging in a little harmless ethnic banter with the plumber from Pakistan. "Yo, Fahad, my crappers stopped up. Grab your snake or that damn skinny Somalian and unplug the fuckin' thing."

So, I bit, but I'll ask again: Please lay out the case for Liberals being racists. 

 

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

The anger is strong in this one. No. You would not be arrested for a hate crime. That has to include, "harm." Hate Speech? Depends. Offensiveness does not qualify as "fighting words."  "Kill all the [blank]" vs. "Kill that [blank - [while pointing at them]]" Anyway, that kind of speech is better left for the courts to decide. 

It's OK to hate Trump, man. But, hate him for the right reasons. Hate him for policy. 

I do hate him for the right reasons, which include what you call his "policy". I don't know if you meant "policies" or if you actually see cohesion and common threads in his words and actions. For all I know you think he really is a super genius and makes terrific sense. I think he's a damn self serving, self dealing, self absorbed nitwit who doesn't give a rats ass who gets hurt as long as he gets what he wants.

What you, and most right wingers, seem unable to grasp is that snowflakes like me would hate him for how he behaves as President even if his policies were to our liking.

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3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

It gets really old.  Sorry for the "longness" of the rant.       

     

What utter self indulgent bullshit. Until now I never had you pegged for being a moral sellout.

 

By the way, how much research did you do into Omar’s past and the context of her comments before deciding she must be anti-Semitic for criticising Israel? I look forward to another thousand word post justifying that.

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4 hours ago, BIGUN said:

 

 

It was in this area that everyone self-identified by race. Francis Lewis HS was the center of the ethnic universe. Each ethnicity grouped together as cliques at school. In that; associations, relationships, friendships and even marriages crossed ethnic lines. We had friends like, "Charlie the Kike" (if you didn't call him that - he got mad.), "the Mick, the WOP, the Spook, the Spic, the Dot," it went on and on.  

These were not derogatory remarks, but badges of ethnic honor. 

 

I grew up on the other side of the GWB in the 70's and I never ever heard   spic, wop, spook, or kike used as a badge of honor.  You would get your ass kicked if you  called anyone that to their face

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34 minutes ago, lummy said:

GWB in the 70's and I never ever heard   spic, wop, spook, or kike used as a badge of honor.  You would get your ass kicked if you  called anyone that to their face

What we wore - it was. Now if someone outside our group called Charlie a Kike; we'd beat their ass. I understand that you don't get it.  

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(edited)
16 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

What we wore - it was. Now if someone outside our group called Charlie a Kike; we'd beat their ass. I understand that you don't get it.  

In the original post, you were quoting from someone else's article, but now you're saying it's  your words?

And I get it,  I had friends that were black, puerto rican, italian, and even a couple of irish kids.    I lived in a very italian neighborhood.    Everyone I associated with had a self identified ethnicity, but  never used those derogatory terms to describe themselves.   

Edited by lummy
fixed typo

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(edited)
24 minutes ago, lummy said:
38 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

What we wore - it was. Now if someone outside our group called Charlie a Kike; we'd beat their ass. I understand that you don't get it.  

In the original post, you were quoting from someone else's article, but now you're saying it's  your words?

I'm sorry. I'm a bit lost. Help me understand where I was quoting someone else and then gave the appearance of it being my words. 

Quote

 And I get it,  I had friends that were black, puerto rican, italian, and even a couple of irish kids.    I lived in a very italian neighborhood.    Everyone I associated with had a self identified ethnicity, but  never used those derogatory terms to describe themselves.  

Perhaps it was a different time frame. But, there have always been groups of individuals that distinguish themselves by their ethnolinguistic uniqueness. Sharing a common self-identity. We see it among ethnic groups today. Calling themselves by their racial slur. People cringe. With inside a very close group; it was (or perhaps is) common to call each other using a (now) ethnic slur. 

Even in the military in the 70's; there were still race riots - unless someone was on your team, gun, section etc. And, it depended on the way something was said. Black guys called me Honkie, Whitey, even Swine (which was then a fight word). But, if he was on your team or gun or section - If he said "You FUCKING swine, Motherfucker!!!" You fought. However, if you did something that was under the officers radar that benefitted said section - he would give a little gaze of admiration and quietly sneer, "You fucking swine" and you'd say, "I know, right" and you'd both smile or even laugh.     

Edited by BIGUN
Fingers must be getting tired. I'm feeling a lot of hostility, LoL

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34 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

What we wore - it was. Now if someone outside our group called Charlie a Kike; we'd beat their ass. I understand that you don't get it.  

You're making a better explanation as to why "The Squad" wants to beat his ass.

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1 minute ago, DJL said:

"The Squad" wants to beat his ass.

OK. Thanks. This is probably a lot better conversation to have in person. Lot easier on the fingers too. Please don't think that I don't get where people are coming from - I do.  

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31 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Even in the military in the 70's; there were still race riots - unless someone was on your team, gun, section etc. And, it depended on the way something was said. Black guys called me Honkie, Whitey, even Swine (which was then a fight word). But, if he was on your team or gun or section - If he said "You FUCKING swine, Motherfucker!!!" You fought. However, if you did something that was under the officers radar that benefitted said section - he would give a little gaze of admiration and quietly sneer, "You fucking swine" and you'd say, "I know, right" and you'd both smile or even laugh.     

Right.  And everyone understands that.  You can get in most skydiving aircraft and say "Hey asshole!" and everyone will say "WHAT!" and laugh.

But get in front of your customer for a presentation, and say "the reason we didn't meet the schedule target is that you are all ASSHOLES!" and you just might get fired.  If you said "and all our new engineers" - while looking at the new hires from India - "should go back where they came from!" you would _definitely_ get fired.

There is a difference.

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Trump's latest attack on Omar: "I hear she was married to her brother."

I wonder what will be next?  Trump heard she tried to marry a white man?  Or perhaps that he heard that a politician married a woman to get her citizenship, then bring her whole family in - and then gave her a job as a political leader.  That would be most foul.

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(edited)
24 minutes ago, billvon said:

Trump's latest attack on Omar: "I hear she was married to her brother."

Let's stop and pause. I know you hate Trump, but that is completely out of context. It's not like it was spontaneous combustion in a rant. He was baited by a member of the media to say it. He said it and then said he didn't know anything about it. Let's review the actual moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkDv0cFma4

 

  

Edited by BIGUN
Changed embed to link

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1 minute ago, BIGUN said:

Let's stop and pause. I know you hate Trump, but that is completely out of context. It's not like it was spontaneous combustion in a rant. He was baited by a member of the media to say it. He said it and then said he didn't know anything about it.  

Right, that's what he does.  "She's disgusting.  She kills kittens.  That's what they say, I don't know.  But everyone is saying it.  It's disgusting."  That way he can say "I never said it!"

I know you are bending over backwards to defend this guy, but really - you are getting ridiculous.  You're smarter than this.

Meanwhile, let's see what the US government has to say about the definition of racism.  From the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission:

“Ethnic slurs and other verbal or physical conduct because of nationality are illegal if they are severe or pervasive and create an intimidating, hostile or offensive working environment, interfere with work performance, or negatively affect job opportunities.  Examples of potentially unlawful conduct include insults, taunting, or ethnic epithets, such as making fun of a person’s foreign accent or comments like, ‘Go back to where you came from,’ whether made by supervisors or co-workers.”

What's wrong with obeying the law?

 

 

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Good quote by Franz Fanon, very applicable to Trump supporters today:

"Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief."

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2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

What we wore - it was. Now if someone outside our group called Charlie a Kike; we'd beat their ass. I understand that you don't get it.  

Trump is not in their group. He's not part of the squad. You get that, right?

 

So, you're saying that, in context where and when you grew up with Trump, if he said what he said to who he said it, he would get his ass kicked. You get that, right?

 

So, you're saying that what Trump said is offensive to the person he said it to, whether he said it today or in his childhood. You get that, right?

 

So, what Trump said is offensive because it is racist. You get that, right?

 

So... what was your point again?:S

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5 minutes ago, billvon said:

uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance.

I don't think there's anyone on here that doesn't know the definition. But, you seem to sidestep that he was baited by a member of the media, paused and thought about it for second before answering - yet no one seems to care about how the discussion arose.  

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And the inevitable backpedal begins.

When Trump's supported started chanting "Send her back!"  Trump stood back and smiled, letting them echo his tweet.  He stood silent for several seconds so they could chant.  

Now he claims he never wanted them to do that.  When he was asked why he didn't stop it, he answered  "I think I did. I started speaking very quickly.  I was not happy with it. I disagree with it."

The question is - what will Trump supporters do?  Will they follow his lead and say "well, I don't support sending them back any more?"  Or will they stick to their guns?

 

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(edited)
19 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Let's stop and pause. I know you hate Trump, but that is completely out of context. It's not like it was spontaneous combustion in a rant. He was baited by a member of the media to say it. He said it and then said he didn't know anything about it. Let's review the actual moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkDv0cFma4  

Yes. Let's stop and pause. In the same breath he was asked by one reporter if he believes in the principle that people should be able to criticise the government (and god knows he's on record enough times hating the US government) and another reporter (apparently since she's inaudible) asks him about some salacious, unverified, illogical rumour.

 

What does he choose to go with?

 

Right, he chooses to go with "the fact" that she married her brother. What wonderfully grown up behaviour.

 

Come on man, regrow your damn spine and call out this reptile for the slimy, lying, racist asshole he is. Don't let him drag you down out of spite for the left, you're only hurting yourself.

Edited by jakee
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2 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I don't think there's anyone on here that doesn't know the definition. But, you seem to sidestep that he was baited by a member of the media, paused and thought about it for second before answering - yet no one seems to care about how the discussion arose.  

Right, he paused and thought about it for a second, and then pronounced as the President of the USA that it was a fact that she married her brother. 

 

And you think that makes it better. Fuck me sideways.o.O

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Just now, BIGUN said:

I don't think there's anyone on here that doesn't know the definition. But, you seem to sidestep that he was baited by a member of the media, paused and thought about it for second before answering - yet no one seems to care about how the discussion arose.  

"Baited?"  It was a right wing media site (OANN) who wanted to show their support by handing him a line.  And his entire reply was: 

"There’s a lot of talk about the fact that she was married to her brother. I know nothing about it. I hear she was married to her brother. You’re asking me a question about it. I don’t know, but I’m sure that somebody will be looking at that.”

You can deny and rationalize all you like.  But not even the craziest Trump supporter is going to be able to turn "the fact that she was married to her brother" and "I hear she was married to her brother" into "he didn't say that" without a very serious case of cognitive dissonance.

 

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