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nigel99

Go back to where you came from

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Seriously. Perhaps you should give a history lesson on white-ruled Rhodesia; its transition to Zimbabwe and the new rule of white suppression/black supremacy under "Dr." Mugabe until being placed on Genocide Watch. I dunno; maybe you were born after 2103 when all was right with racism in Zimbabwe and everyone started holding hands and dancing around the pride pole. 

Go ahead. Share with us the lack of racism in Zimbabwe.    

Seriously Keith,

I think I liked your old heart better.

Joe

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Seriously. Perhaps you should give a history lesson on white-ruled Rhodesia; its transition to Zimbabwe and the new rule of white suppression/black supremacy under "Dr." Mugabe until being placed on Genocide Watch. I dunno; maybe you were born after 2103 when all was right with racism in Zimbabwe and everyone started holding hands and dancing around the pride pole. 

Go ahead. Share with us the lack of racism in Zimbabwe.    

You probably missed the entire point of that post because you were too busy writing an angry reply after reading only the first sentence.

Easily done.

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3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Seriously. Perhaps you should give a history lesson on white-ruled Rhodesia; its transition to Zimbabwe and the new rule of white suppression/black supremacy under "Dr." Mugabe until being placed on Genocide Watch. I dunno; maybe you were born after 2103 when all was right with racism in Zimbabwe and everyone started holding hands and dancing around the pride pole. 

Go ahead. Share with us the lack of racism in Zimbabwe.    

Oh boy. Exactly where in his post did you see him saying Zimbabweans weren't racist? Because the post everyone else read said the exact opposite.

 

What's happened to you man? You need to calm down and come back to reality...

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23 hours ago, nigel99 said:

I was born in Zimbabwe and grew up seeing South Africans as racist but we were not. Then I moved to the UK and saw just how racist Zimbabweans were or could be and also for the first time really experienced racism from Black to White (try dealing with the Zimbabwean embassy and people inside it as a white Zimbabwean 15-20 years ago).

My apologies, Nigel. While I did read the whole thing - as others have said; I locked on to the first sentence and the part about, "...racist, but we were not" threw me sideways. 

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11 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

My apologies, Nigel.

Don't pander to the Dems on this site. Stop feeling guilty for being Conservative. :P

 

4 minutes ago, BIGUN said:
9 hours ago, kallend said:

Your inability to see Trump's racism is just staggering.

While your inability to see the liberals is just as staggering.

Nah, unlike Trump they at least look around first to make sure no one's watching.

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On 7/14/2019 at 6:30 PM, nigel99 said:

This is the first time I’ve heard a mainstream politician use the term. It’s always been associated with racist right wing idiots as far as I know.

I am interested in what the right wing leaning people here feel about Trump saying that to members of Congress.

the bumper stickers existed for years. It used to be a rallying cry for the whole country. One thing I got to say now though is, I love the chaos that is a Democratic party. It is fun to watch

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(edited)
34 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

My apologies, Nigel. While I did read the whole thing - as others have said; I locked on to the first sentence and the part about, "...racist, but we were not" threw me sideways. 

Takes a decent person to admit to a mistake and apologize. Props.

 

You never answered my question, by the way. Do you think Trumps tweet was racist?

I ask because you still seem to be putting forward the idea that racism is the sole providence of a particular political party or ideology. THAT, I disagree with.

Anyone can be racist, it’s just particularly alarming when it’s the president of the US. 

Edited by yoink

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12 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Seriously. Perhaps you should give a history lesson on white-ruled Rhodesia; its transition to Zimbabwe and the new rule of white suppression/black supremacy under "Dr." Mugabe until being placed on Genocide Watch. I dunno; maybe you were born after 2103 when all was right with racism in Zimbabwe and everyone started holding hands and dancing around the pride pole. 

Go ahead. Share with us the lack of racism in Zimbabwe.    

You have completely missed his point.

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9 hours ago, BIGUN said:

My apologies, Nigel. While I did read the whole thing - as others have said; I locked on to the first sentence and the part about, "...racist, but we were not" threw me sideways. 

Haha, easily done. You should see the shitstorms my partner and I get into for exactly that reason!

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9 hours ago, rushmc said:

the bumper stickers existed for years. It used to be a rallying cry for the whole country. One thing I got to say now though is, I love the chaos that is a Democratic party. It is fun to watch

https://images.app.goo.gl/VZz3oKZsucMeP6KA8

 

This is very popular bumper  sticker here. It  appears to be accepted. I love the New Zealand guys who have the bumber sticker ‘Too late we’re here’ 

Edited by nigel99

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12 hours ago, rushmc said:

One thing I got to say now though is, I love the chaos that is a Democratic party. It is fun to watch

You seem to say this every time there's a contentious issue on the table.  Yes, their certainly a bit of scrambling and gnashing when issues come up and that's because Democrats squash these issues instead of letting them develop.  On the flip side of that the Republican party did nothing about Trump and that's how he became President.  A better continuation I've seen of this is that he's making this "squad" the face of the Democratic party.  What you're missing is that at a point when racism, sexual predation, and global temperatures are at the forefront of our national psyche he has placed the most outspoken people in the middle of it.  He's made them famous at a point when their message resonates the most and addresses the issues most directly.

Edited by DJL

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(edited)
12 hours ago, yoink said:

1. You never answered my question, by the way. Do you think Trumps tweet was racist?

2. I ask because you still seem to be putting forward the idea that racism is the sole providence of a particular political party or ideology. THAT, I disagree with.

3. Anyone can be racist, it’s just particularly alarming when it’s the president of the US. 

I've added a number to each point, so I can address each. 

1. I do not think Trump's tweet was racist - to him or anyone else that grew up in NYC at that time. In the mid 60's to early 70's ('72 to be exact); I lived in Flushing NYC near 160th Street. I; of Sicilian descent. We lived in a pocket in Queens near Francis Lewis HS on the corner of Jamaica. that was predominantly Sicilian. The entire area has numerous pockets of ethnicity.

After the 1970s, as housing prices began to tumble, many Hispanic such as Salvadorans, Colombians, Dominicans, and West Indian immigrants moved in. These ethnic groups tended to stay more towards the Jamaica Avenue and South Jamaica areas. Immigration from other countries did not become widespread until the late 1990s and early 2000s. Gentrification and decrease in crime attracted many families to Jamaica's safe havens; Hillside Avenue reflects this trend. Along 150th to 161st streets, much of the stores and restaurants typify South American and Caribbean cultures.

Farther east is the rapidly growing East Indian community. Mainly spurred on by the Jamaica Muslim Center, Bangladeshis have flocked to this area due to easy transit access and the numerous Bangladeshi stores and restaurants lining 167th and 168th Streets. Bangladeshis are the most rapidly growing ethnic group here; however, it is also an African-American commercial area. Many Sri Lankans also live in this area for similar reasons as the Bangladeshi community, reflected by the numerous food and grocery establishments along Hillside Avenue catering to the community. As well as the large South Asian community, significant Filipino and African communities thrive in Jamaica, along with the neighboring Filipino community in Queens Village and the historic, well established African-American community residing in Jamaica. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica,_Queens

And, the article leaves out a large population of Armenians. This too; is close to where Trump grew up. Except he lived in Jamaica Estates. The rich neighborhood. A quasi-gated community at that time. Not so much for its physical barriers as social barriers. You didn't go there for two reasons, 1) it reminded you of how poor you were, and 2) they had their own "police force." 

It was in this area that everyone self-identified by race. Francis Lewis HS was the center of the ethnic universe. Each ethnicity grouped together as cliques at school. In that; associations, relationships, friendships and even marriages crossed ethnic lines. We had friends like, "Charlie the Kike" (if you didn't call him that - he got mad.), "the Mick, the WOP, the Spook, the Spic, the Dot," it went on and on.  

These were not derogatory remarks, but badges of ethnic honor. And, if you really wanted a dose of ethnicity - you went down to main street where every vendor along Main Street was from a different country. You could literally go from the Bangladesh diner to a Jewish Bakery in two steps. And, next door to them was the Italian Deli. The Indian hardware store, the Pakistani plumber ("You come from a fucking shithole country, how the fuck did you become a plumber when you got no fucking plumbing in your own country," "Fuck you and YOUR shithole country") But, he was the guy you called when you needed plumbing work done. Joe from Sicily went on to marry Marie from Armenia. Both of whom met in Junior HS and are still married to this day. They both caught shit for "marrying outside their race." From their own families. But, it wasn't mean or vindictive. You gave them, "Shit."

While we learned to "relate" with the differing ethnic groups - there were times things got heated. And, it generally ended in "Go back to where you fucking came from you [xxxxethnicxxx] prick motherfucker."

It could have meant your country, but it could have meant your neighborhood. It all depended on the level of intensity, anger and curse words used. You knew which one it meant based on those factors. And, that's what Trump meant. And, Dr. Kraut agrees. 

Alan Kraut, a scholar at American University who is writing a history of anti-immigrant feeling in the U.S., says he saw this kind of thing play out firsthand when he was a child growing up in the Bronx.

"When kids had a fight in the street and the kids were from different ethnic groups, one kid would often say to the other: 'You and your parents go back where you came from,' " Kraut recalls.

"You know, it could mean Brooklyn. But it could also mean go back where you came from — you know, Russian Jews who came to the United States, southern Italians who came to the United States, Puerto Ricans newly arrived," he continues. "So when this came out of the mouth of this president who's from Queens, it sounded almost like a child saying that in my memory on the streets of New York."

2. ". . . racism is the sole providence of a particular political party or ideology." That was not the intent. The intent was - the Democratic Party, the Liberal Ideology cannot throw rocks in any direction without hitting their own current and history of racism. 

3.  "Anyone can be racist, it’s just particularly alarming when it’s the president of the US." Two parts: Implicit Bias doesn't make you racist. Our inherent response mechanisms were programmed long ago; implicit biases are reactionary, volatile, and part of our subconscious. Having attitudes towards people or associate stereotypes is not racism. I'll let you research this. 

3.1 "... alarming when it’s the president of the US" He's not racist as much as he's being labeled as racist. 

In the end, everyone has implicit bias. I do grow tired and sometimes angry at the "labelling" of others in society as racist. Everyone and everything gets a label now. And, everyone has to live up to it or fight against it. It's kinda like, "there's seven types of ADD; which one are you?" Even within cultures; there's subcultures - which one are you? There's 200+ dialects of German; which one are you? There's varying scales of darkness on the latino scale; which one are you?

It gets really old.  Sorry for the "longness" of the rant.       

     

Edited by BIGUN
Never confuse what someone feels; with what they say.

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Walk into work, pick out someone you don't like, scream at them to go back to whatever shit hole they came from. Will you be fired? Do you think this is acceptable behavior? Yet OIP is allowed to say it? Now try saying, go back to where ever you came from, to someone who is walking into a Mosque or Synagogue. You will be arrested and charged  with a hate crime. And you don't think Trump is a racist!!

 

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23 minutes ago, skyhank said:

Yet OIP is allowed to say it? Now try saying, go back to where ever you came from, to someone who is walking into a Mosque or Synagogue. You will be arrested and charged  with a hate crime.

The anger is strong in this one. No. You would not be arrested for a hate crime. That has to include, "harm." Hate Speech? Depends. Offensiveness does not qualify as "fighting words."  "Kill all the [blank]" vs. "Kill that [blank - [while pointing at them]]" Anyway, that kind of speech is better left for the courts to decide. 

It's OK to hate Trump, man. But, hate him for the right reasons. Hate him for policy. 

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

    

Quote

1. I do not think Trump's tweet was racist - to him or anyone else that grew up in NYC at that time . . . 

I was born in Queens.  When we moved to Nassau most of my family still lived in Astoria and we spent a lot of time there.  So I'm going to call BS on that.  Try going into Brooklyn and calling a guy with a yarmulke a "kike" - see what happens.

Quote

 

"the Mick, the WOP, the Spook, the Spic, the Dot," it went on and on.  

These were not derogatory remarks, but badges of ethnic honor.

 

Gonna call a big huge BS on that one.  At my high school in Mineola, we had similar names - and we used them to tell ourselves we were better than 'them.'  And if you wanted to start a fight, you called the Jewish kid a kike.  The biggest insult, though, was "gay."  If you sucked at basketball, you were "gay."  If you didn't want to do drugs behind the burning bush, you were "gay."  Even though, looking back, several of my classmates _were_ gay, it was nothing but an insult.  (It was the one used against me all the time, since I didn't fit any of the derogatory religious, racial or ethnic slurs very well.)

Now, I could rationalize that by saying 'hey, we weren't homophobic - it was a badge of honor!' but that would be self-serving BS, just as yours is.  We used it to attack people, just as you do now.

Quote

"You know, it could mean Brooklyn."

That is just a . . . really sad, pathetic attempt to defend a racist.  What's next?  "No, see, nigger is a sign of affection!  Black people say it to each other all the time.  He is CERTAINLY not a racist just because he calls black people niggers!  If you lived in NYC you'd understand."

Quote

In the end, everyone has implicit bias. I do grow tired and sometimes angry at the "labelling" of others in society as racist. 

[bigun mode]Oh, does the delicate snowflake need a safe space? [/bigun mode]

[reality mode] Racists exist, and you bet your ass I am going to call them out.  The KKK is racist, and if you (or people like you) defend their racism because 'why label them?' I am going to call you out on it.  The Daily Stormer is racist.  White supremacists are racist.  John Wayne was racist.  David Duke is racist.  Trump is racist.

We are getting much better, overall, in terms of racism, sexism, homophobia etc.  But the reason we are getting better is that we don't tolerate racism, sexism and homophobia as much as we used to.  And the first step in that is calling it out.  So that's going to keep happening, because it's worked and we are going to continue going to do what works.  Sorry if that bothers you.[/reality mode]

And if I was Trump, I'd be telling you to go back to wherever you came from, where no one thinks racism is bad, and no one labels racists "racists."  But since I'm not, I'll just call you out on enabing racists when it happens.

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