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iranianjumper

wingsuit jumping order

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On 6/30/2019 at 10:47 AM, iranianjumper said:

I am not wingsuiter but during a discussion I have heared that in Empuriabrava DZ. wingsuiters in jump run exit first .

it is against the common and theorical exit order , but if it is true anybody know the reason ?

 

 

It sort of doesn't matter, since wingsuiters create their own separation - and their flights are long enough that they are going to open last anyway.  But in general they get out last, just because that way even with a huge screwup in flight paths, they can't go back through jump run while people are in freefall there.

In my experience, one of the bigger factors in deciding exit order is who has seniority and who wants to sit next to the door on hot days.

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(edited)
8 hours ago, billvon said:

 

In my experience, one of the bigger factors in deciding exit order is who has seniority and who wants to sit next to the door on hot days.

There is no seniority that trumps safety. As with most things in life, there is a correct and established way to do things and being around a long time does not make you exempt from the rules. Wingsuiters get out last. That's how it is done at any reputable DZ. Is it physically possible for a wingsuiter to get out first safely? Sure. It's physically possible to safely execute any combination of exit order that exists. We could put AFF students out first and head-down carving freefliers out last. It could be done safely if enough time was put between groups. But since most DZs dont want five passes per load, we need to follow the correct, established, 'de facto' exit order which puts wingsuiters out last. Unless the wingsutiers have their own pass with at least four minutes between their exit and the exit of the next group, putting them out first is not smart. A wingsuiter in a very large suit can get nearly four minutes of freefall if s/he tried.

Edited by Westerly
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There is a video somewhere where a group of wingsuits get out and fly in line of flight, one guy jumps after them and is supposed to do a high pull but instead takes a long delay and flies through wingsuit formation. Sure, they could have turned away from jump run as soon as they got out but shit happens. Plus one big factor winth wingsuits jumping last is that everybody can jump closer to the dropzone, we won´t have a problem getting back from a long spot unless the pilot made a massive mistake :P 

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There are only 2 run-in's at Empuriabrava, which is a coastal DZ. One heads inland from the ocean, one heads  towards the ocean from inland. I'm assuming that, depending on the run-in and wind strength, normal rules of exit may not apply. Having jumped there (not as a wingsuiter I must add) I've seen tandems, which in the UK at my DZ always exit after fun jumpers, sometimes exit first or even between fun jumpers. When I asked about this the explanation I was given was run in/wind, so perhaps the same applies to WS?

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I think best is to contact Empuriabrava staff and ask if it's really so and if it is, then why. 

Unless somebody from EB is on this forum, all you'll get is speculations.

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On 7/1/2019 at 2:03 PM, billvon said:

It sort of doesn't matter, since wingsuiters create their own separation

Wouldn't it be much more likely that someone could track into them if they left first? On my DZ they generally fly 90 degrees out from jump run and then turn parallel to it; so if they didn't quite go far enough out, or if someone in  the last regular group tracks a longer distance than usual, that person could easily track into them or open right under them, no?--not to mention other tracking or angle groups. It seems to me, letting them out last just avoids any conflict whatsoever (except between the wingsuiters themselves.) It also makes me feel good as a regular jumper, as I'm not relying on the wingsuiters to stick to their promised pattern (After all, these guys look and talk like they came straight from the local anarchists convention anyway xD )

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First of all: Empuria is a nice, super professional dropzone. I've visited a few times, mostly for freefly jumps.

I also did a couple of wingsuit jumps there, from their Porter, and I was the last one out with a jumprun towards the sea. So maybe it depends on jumprun direction? Or perhaps they changed it since my last visit (it's been a couple of years...)?

 

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On 7/2/2019 at 6:08 AM, Lukasz_Se said:

There is a video somewhere where a group of wingsuits get out and fly in line of flight, one guy jumps after them and is supposed to do a high pull but instead takes a long delay and flies through wingsuit formation. Sure, they could have turned away from jump run as soon as they got out but shit happens. Plus one big factor winth wingsuits jumping last is that everybody can jump closer to the dropzone, we won´t have a problem getting back from a long spot unless the pilot made a massive mistake :P 

That happened to me.  We didn't bank far from jump run and the plane turned.

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On 7/1/2019 at 9:57 PM, Westerly said:

There is no seniority that trumps safety. As with most things in life, there is a correct and established way to do things and being around a long time does not make you exempt from the rules.

Well, three things there. 

First, it _should_ be true that seniority does not trump safety.  Practically, it is common.  Often that very seniority allows the senior jumper to "pull rank" and say "look, I have 80 million jumps and I say it's safe!  How many jumps do you have?"  Unfortunate but true.  It's happened to me more than once.

Second, while there is generally an "established" way of doing things, skydiving changes - and what may have been safe 10 years ago may not be safe nowadays.  Wingsuits/tracking suits, for example, have changed skydiving significantly, and procedures have adapted accordingly.

Finally, while "correct and established" procedures are often the best approach, sometimes local conditions (different jump runs, different winds aloft, air traffic limitations etc) may require transient changes.

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On 7/2/2019 at 5:08 PM, mbohu said:

Wouldn't it be much more likely that someone could track into them if they left first? On my DZ they generally fly 90 degrees out from jump run and then turn parallel to it; so if they didn't quite go far enough out, or if someone in  the last regular group tracks a longer distance than usual, that person could easily track into them or open right under them, no?--not to mention other tracking or angle groups. It seems to me, letting them out last just avoids any conflict whatsoever (except between the wingsuiters themselves.) It also makes me feel good as a regular jumper, as I'm not relying on the wingsuiters to stick to their promised pattern (After all, these guys look and talk like they came straight from the local anarchists convention anyway xD )

?? How?  Wingsuiters fall much more slowly than everyone else.  If they start on top by exiting last, they remain on top, barring a serious problem (premature opening or something.)

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2 hours ago, billvon said:

?? How?  Wingsuiters fall much more slowly than everyone else.  If they start on top by exiting last, they remain on top, barring a serious problem (premature opening or something.)

Yes, that's what I'm saying. If they left first, as the OP stated, it seems more dangerous. So I don't see any reason why they shouldn't ALWAYS leave last. If they leave last, since they fall slowest, there is never a chance for any conflicts with non-wingsuiters.
It sounded to me like you were saying in your first post, that it doesn't matter if they left first or last (other than who gets to be next to the door xD) That's the part of your comment I didn't understand.

Personally, I'd be scared if I exited after a group of wingsuiters (especially if I exited quite a few groups after them) as my safety would completely rely on their flight pattern, which I can't control.

 

 

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(edited)
15 hours ago, billvon said:

Well, three things there. 

First, it _should_ be true that seniority does not trump safety.  Practically, it is common.  Often that very seniority allows the senior jumper to "pull rank" and say "look, I have 80 million jumps and I say it's safe!  How many jumps do you have?"

 

Then you take it up with the S&TA. Licensed skydivers report to the S&TA, not to other licensed skydivers. I have not witnessed what you've expressed very often. Most experienced jumpers know the correct exit order and they follow it. Also, most larger DZs have a pre-established exit order that everyone is required to follow regardless of whether they want to sit next to the door or not.

Edited by Westerly

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On 7/25/2019 at 9:53 PM, Westerly said:

Then you take it up with the S&TA. 

Agreed.  However, keep in mind that S+TA's can be just as selfish as any other skydiver.  (I know it shouldn't be that way, but . . . )

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I've just returned home from 2 weeks in Empuriabrava. I asked a DZ instructor about the WS exit order and was told that they always exit last, notwithstanding the run in.  This was also my experience on the lifts that I was on and on which there were also Wingsuiters.

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