Just a reminder

[brenthutch 383]

3 hours ago, SethInMI said:

The tax credits were for any electric car manufacturer if that is what you are referring to, so if you are annoyed at them it is not Tesla that should get your vitriol but any manufacturer of electric cars. I would say that at this point the credits seem to be doing what they were intended, which is jump start that market. Tesla has brought a lot of $ to the US in terms of jobs, so seems like a win for the USA at this point, as most of Tesla's buyers would have bought European or Japanese cars if they didn't have Tesla as an option.

As far as only 1 second faster than a Civic, that is misleading. I assume you mean in 0-60mph time, and 5.3 sec vs 6.3 sec is a lot more noticeable in terms of power than 1 sec would imply.

No I was replying to the Nuremberg Ring times 

[JoeWeber 2,297]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

No I was replying to the Nuremberg Ring times 

Come on, man, it's Nürburgring.  If you want to impress, be impressive.

[ryoder 1,381]

13 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Come on, man, it's Nürburgring.  If you want to impress, be impressive.

ROTFLMAO!!!

[jakee 1,254]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

No I was replying to the Nuremberg Ring times 

Well sure. Nuremberg’s ring road probably has a speed limit.

[SethInMI 145]

9 hours ago, ryoder said:

ROTFLMAO!!!

Give him a break. It's not like he's on trial.  

[billvon 2,395]

On 9/17/2019 at 6:03 PM, brenthutch said:

Teslas are marvel of modern engineering and design, that goes without saying.  I just don't like the government subsidies for what can only be described as an upper middle class toy/car. 

They are tax breaks, not subsidy payouts.  Aren't you all for lower taxes?

Quote

I also don't think their stock price can be supported by their abysmal sales results.  

Hmm.  Given that they sell more cars than Chrysler, Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, Mitsubishi, Lincoln, Volvo and Porsche - hard to call that abysmal unless you have a political agenda to push.  (Or you consider all those companies even MORE abysmal.)

 

[airdvr 197]

On 9/17/2019 at 1:44 PM, ryoder said:

"www.teslarati.com" is a CNAME record pointing to "teslarati-com-edge.ntv.io", which does not exist.

But here is a link to the story: https://jalopnik.com/tesla-may-have-already-crushed-porsches-ev-nurburgring-1838179307

Not a Tesla you can buy off the showroom floor...but I don't think the Porsche was either.

[ryoder 1,381]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

Not a Tesla you can buy off the showroom floor...but I don't think the Porsche was either.

Agreed;

- 3 motors.

- Carbon-ceramic brakes.

- Oversize tires & wheels.

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

5 hours ago, airdvr said:

Not a Tesla you can buy off the showroom floor...but I don't think the Porsche was either.

This is being discussed to death on the Porsche forums.

There's an "S" version and a "Turbo S" (no, I have no idea how an electric car can have a 'turbo'). The version run was the "S". Porsche has been around this block a few times. The idea that they didn't run the 'fastest & best' car in the shop, so that they can see what the competition can do, and then pull out the 'better' car and show what it can really do is something they've done in the past. More than once. 

The "Porsche Purists" absolutely HATE the electric Taycan. But then again, they hated the 914, 924, 928, Boxter, Cayenne (SUV) and Panamera when they came out. They hate anything that doesn't have the engine in back. Some of them still hate anything that isn't air cooled. 
The reasonably objective folks, however, aren't all that impressed. None of the "Porsche types" that have driven the Taycan are terribly surprised that a stripped down, souped up version of the Tesla beat it. The general assessment seems to be that it's a pretty standard electric car with the Porsche crest on it (and an appropriate price, too). 
A bit of a step back from the Cayenne, which was an SUV that performed like a Porsche should. Same with the Panamera. The Cayenne is a 2 1/2+ ton pig of a car, but it goes. The Turbo version (which really has two turbochargers) goes really well (I know this for a fact, I have an 05). The Panamera was vilified for being butt ugly (and it was), but it also goes very well.
We shall see if the later versions of the Taycan will perform better.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

On 9/17/2019 at 6:03 PM, brenthutch said:

  I just don't like the government subsidies for what can only be described as an upper middle class toy/car.

Have you been in favour of any of the Republican tax cuts?

[brenthutch 383]

On 9/23/2019 at 12:09 PM, SkyDekker said:

Have you been in favour of any of the Republican tax cuts?

Do you understand the difference between a tax cut and a government subsidy?  Sorry rhetorical question, obviously you don't.

[billvon 2,395]

39 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Do you understand the difference between a tax cut and a government subsidy?  Sorry rhetorical question, obviously you don't.

Yep.  A tax cut is a reduction in taxes (like the EV tax credit.)  A subsidy is the government paying for something (like Trump's farm subsidies.)

[brenthutch 383]

23 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yep.  A tax cut is a reduction in taxes (like the EV tax credit.)  A subsidy is the government paying for something (like Trump's farm subsidies.)

I guess I just don't understand how poring taxpayer dollars into Elon Musk's pockets make America better off.  We are not running out of gasoline and EVs will not save the planet from a climate apocalypse.  It is just like corn ethane;  just a bunch of left wing boondoggle virtue signaling.   

[billvon 2,395]

4 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

I guess I just don't understand how poring taxpayer dollars into Elon Musk's pockets make America better off. 

It's not.  It's letting taxpayers keep the money in THEIR pockets.  I heartily approve of that approach.  Why do you prefer higher taxes?

Quote

We are not running out of gasoline and EVs will not save the planet from a climate apocalypse. 

EV's alone will not "save the planet" - nor will global warming destroy the planet to begin with.  EV's will merely be one part of a plan to reduce the degree of warming, thus helping humanity in the long run.

Quote

It is just like corn ethane;  just a bunch of left wing boondoggle virtue signaling.   

Corn produces very little ethane.  Did you mean corn-based ethanol? 

[brenthutch 383]

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

"Musk and his companies’ investors enjoy most of the financial upside of the government support, while taxpayers shoulder the cost. The payoff for the public would come in the form of major pollution reductions, but only if solar panels and electric cars break through as viable mass-market products. For now, both remain niche products for mostly well-heeled customers."

[SkyDekker 1,121]

14 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Do you understand the difference between a tax cut and a government subsidy?  Sorry rhetorical question, obviously you don't.

Your comment was:

 

On 9/23/2019 at 9:09 AM, SkyDekker said:

I just don't like the government subsidies for what can only be described as an upper middle class toy/car.

But that is exactly what a tax break to the upper class does. The trickle down idea, which you have endorsed, says that if we tax the rich less, they will spend more. I think we can both agree that the rich already have their basic needs met. Hence, any spending in your endorsed trickle down theory would generally be on luxuries. Something you then seem to object to.

 

Never mind the irony that you then go on to show you do not understand the difference between a subsidy and a tax cut.

[CygnusX-1 42]

I agree that brenthutch quite doesn't understand how this works.

Fact 1: Three months ago I bought a Tesla. It is paid for in full. I am not giving Tesla any more money for the purchase of the vehicle.

Fact 2: Come February 2020 when I do my federal taxes (and receive my hopeful refund), I will NOT be sending that money to Elon Musk.

Fact 3: I will probably NOT trickle that money down to anyone else either. For the past 3 years, I have sent any federal refund money directly into my retirement fund. I don't see any reason why I will change that next year.

This is not too difficult to understand. Not sure why someone who appears to be intelligent cannot comprehend these simple facts.

[brenthutch 383]

What you don't understand is that money is fungible.  The money you get from your tax deduction has already gone to Musk in the form of the full price you paid for your Tesla.  You are just being used as an intermediary.  Government gives you a tax credit and you pass that on to Tesla.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

21 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

What you don't understand is that money is fungible.  The money you get from your tax deduction has already gone to Musk in the form of the full price you paid for your Tesla.  You are just being used as an intermediary.  Government gives you a tax credit and you pass that on to Tesla.

So it is not a subsidy?

 

[billvon 2,395]

22 hours ago, brenthutch said:

What you don't understand is that money is fungible.  The money you get from your tax deduction  . . .

So it is a tax cut and not a subsidy.  Thank you.

[CygnusX-1 42]

Actually, not. I would have bought the car without the tax cut, anyway. In my opinion, it is the best car out there in it's segment. Therefore, my money went to Tesla, not the government's. It is nice to finally get a tax break for something meaningful to me (like buying a new car) vs. the useless tax credit you get for procreating. But that is a different subject, so I won't get into that thread drift.

And why the hate on Tesla, EVERY electric car whether it is made by an American company (like Tesla) or a foreign company (like Byton) is eligible for the tax credit.  

[normiss 622]

4 hours ago, CygnusX-1 said:

Actually, not. I would have bought the car without the tax cut, anyway. In my opinion, it is the best car out there in it's segment. Therefore, my money went to Tesla, not the government's. It is nice to finally get a tax break for something meaningful to me (like buying a new car) vs. the useless tax credit you get for procreating. But that is a different subject, so I won't get into that thread drift.

And why the hate on Tesla, EVERY electric car whether it is made by an American company (like Tesla) or a foreign company (like Byton) is eligible for the tax credit.  

For some odd reason, Elon seems to be a preferred target of many.

[airdvr 197]

On 9/25/2019 at 10:26 PM, billvon said:

EV's alone will not "save the planet" - nor will global warming destroy the planet to begin with.  EV's will merely be one part of a plan to reduce the degree of warming, thus helping humanity in the long run.

Somebody better tell Greta.

[billvon 2,395]

14 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Somebody better tell Greta.

Thunberg hasn't claimed that EV's will save the planet, nor has she claimed global warming will destroy the planet.   That strawman don't hunt.

[brenthutch 383]

23 hours ago, billvon said:

So it is a tax cut and not a subsidy.  Thank you.

Somebody better tell Elon Musk, because he calls them subsidies.  Checkmate