Tuition Free College

[airdvr 197]

On the surface I'm sure it sounds great.  In reality I think it's a bad idea in it's current form.  You might as well just make the K-12 system a K-16 system.  The only way I think it would work is to give credit for performance.  Perform well and we'll refund your fees, or excuse your loan.  I have no interest in paying for someone to party for 4 years.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

On the surface I'm sure it sounds great.  In reality I think it's a bad idea in it's current form.  You might as well just make the K-12 system a K-16 system.  The only way I think it would work is to give credit for performance.  Perform well and we'll refund your fees, or excuse your loan.  I have no interest in paying for someone to party for 4 years.

Agreed - 

OR - we could simply pay our teachers more and get better quality teachers.

Its been proven that paying more = better performance.

 

In its current form is the key.

 

Its kind of like Obama Care - the intentions are great - until you introduce reality.

Get the politicians out of it and we have a better chance of real success.

Edited May 8, 2019 by turtlespeed

[normiss 622]

3 hours ago, airdvr said:

On the surface I'm sure it sounds great.  In reality I think it's a bad idea in it's current form.  You might as well just make the K-12 system a K-16 system.  The only way I think it would work is to give credit for performance.  Perform well and we'll refund your fees, or excuse your loan.  I have no interest in paying for someone to party for 4 years.

Makes me wish I had been around prior to credit hour fees, when most colleges were free in the US.

Given our addiction and obsession with killing machines though, we're much too poor to stop killing just to educate people in an effort to improve the country.

[Stumpy 256]

2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

 

Its kind of like Obama Care - the intentions are great - until you introduce reality.

Get the politicians out of it and we have a better chance of real success.

No - Obamacare was always a crap idea, however it was also a massive improvement on what went before. It was a necessary compromise on the journey to a similar system that most first world countries operate that do not bankrupt their citizens for being ill. 

[DougH 270]

I will jump on to support it if they refund me my tuition plus interest, and they demand accountability for performance and completion. I paid a hefty sum to get a degree at a state university that could actually give me a ROI. A large reason for the high cost of my tuition was the inflation created by the governments mucking around with college funding.

 

[billvon 2,396]

3 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

OR - we could simply pay our teachers more and get better quality teachers.Its been proven that paying more = better performance.

Agreed.  However, that is a political solution.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I am a professor at a state university.  In my state, in-state students who finish high school with a B average get a scholarship that covers 80% of their tuition.  Additional merit/need based scholarships can cover the rest.  To keep the scholarship they must maintain a B average in their university studies.  This is paid for by the state lottery.

Personally I am OK with requiring students to cover 20% of their tuition.  In my experience people who receive things for free are often less likely to value whatever goods or services they are receiving.  If they have to pay for it, even a bit, they are more likely to respect it.

Of course tuition is only part of the expense of going to university/college.  Books, additional fees, room and board, and entertainment/incidentals must also be paid for, and this may easily exceed tuition.  The state scholarship does not cover these costs, and they are a major impediment for students from low income families.

Tuition has really skyrocketed over the last couple of decades.  Several factors are involved, but a major one is that states are covering less of the operating costs but demanding more from universities.  This became a lot worse during the last recession, but a bigger factor is the political pressure to cut taxes, which reduces state revenues.  For example, in Wisconsin funding from the state amounts to only 15% of what it costs to operate the state university system.  The difference has to be made up somewhere, and increasing tuition is an obvious option. 

The current system of student loans does not help (IMHO) as students do not immediately feel the pain of high tuition so they may not make well thought out decisions.  High student debt has become a national crisis.  Also taxpayers seem to be seduced by the idea (sold to them by conservative politicians since Reagan or maybe before) that governments will provide lots of services and "somebody else" will pay for it.

 

Don

Edited May 11, 2019 by GeorgiaDon

[turtlespeed 212]

On 5/11/2019 at 7:22 AM, GeorgiaDon said:

I am a professor at a state university.  In my state, in-state students who finish high school with a B average get a scholarship that covers 80% of their tuition.  Additional merit/need based scholarships can cover the rest.  To keep the scholarship they must maintain a B average in their university studies.  This is paid for by the state lottery.

Personally I am OK with requiring students to cover 20% of their tuition.  In my experience people who receive things for free are often less likely to value whatever goods or services they are receiving.  If they have to pay for it, even a bit, they are more likely to respect it.

Of course tuition is only part of the expense of going to university/college.  Books, additional fees, room and board, and entertainment/incidentals must also be paid for, and this may easily exceed tuition.  The state scholarship does not cover these costs, and they are a major impediment for students from low income families.

Tuition has really skyrocketed over the last couple of decades.  Several factors are involved, but a major one is that states are covering less of the operating costs but demanding more from universities.  This became a lot worse during the last recession, but a bigger factor is the political pressure to cut taxes, which reduces state revenues.  For example, in Wisconsin funding from the state amounts to only 15% of what it costs to operate the state university system.  The difference has to be made up somewhere, and increasing tuition is an obvious option. 

The current system of student loans does not help (IMHO) as students do not immediately feel the pain of high tuition so they may not make well thought out decisions.  High student debt has become a national crisis.  Also taxpayers seem to be seduced by the idea (sold to them by conservative politicians since Reagan or maybe before) that governments will provide lots of services and "somebody else" will pay for it.

 

Don

I love this - 

1) It teaches SOME financial responsibility and real time, real life, reality in the world of "Entitlement"

2) It teaches that if you do work hard - you can get closer to reaching your goals most of the time.

[winsor 186]

This goes with my recommendation for universal conscription as a requirement for full citizenship.  I figure that, after grade 12, everyone should be committed to a minimum of 18  months of service - say 6 months of training and 12 months on the job.

This need not be military, the Park Service would do as well as the Marine Corps.  Either way, get away from mommy and daddy and take responsibility for yourself as part of achieving majority.

The various academies could serve as a basis for 'free' education.  You enter with a 6 year commitment upon graduation.  If you fail or drop out that commitment remains, only you're Enlisted instead of Commissioned.  Not everyone is management material.

I realize that things that work just fine in Switzerland fall apart when our passion for 'diversity' enters the equation, but it's an improvement on whatever we are or are not doing now.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[wmw999 2,121]

I agree with this post. Period  

Wendy P. 

[DJL 232]

2 hours ago, winsor said:

This goes with my recommendation for universal conscription as a requirement for full citizenship.  I figure that, after grade 12, everyone should be committed to a minimum of 18  months of service - say 6 months of training and 12 months on the job.

There's simply no ROI for this.  You're talking about 3.6 million unmotivated teenagers yearly who need to be transported, housed, and fed just for them to dick around for a year before moving on to their actual goals.  As for national service being mandatory for citizenship, that flies in the face of the very reason we fought for our independence.  National service via the free market and free will is no less "American" that going into the military, there is much more to our culture than warfare or even government service.

Edited May 13, 2019 by DJL

[billvon 2,396]

2 hours ago, DJL said:

There's simply no ROI for this.  You're talking about 3.6 million unmotivated teenagers yearly who need to be transported, housed, and fed just for them to dick around for a year before moving on to their actual goals. 

There will some people for whom that will be true - but there are other benefits to having such service be in such people's backgrounds.  And the majority of teenagers are not "unmotivated" and will not "just dick around" - you just disagree with their motivations and their goals, which is fine.

Quote

As for national service being mandatory for citizenship, that flies in the face of the very reason we fought for our independence.  National service via the free market and free will is no less "American" that going into the military, there is much more to our culture than warfare or even government service.

?? Uh, right.  We've had drafts; they weren't considered unAmerican.  Indeed, they were part of what produced a generation often described as "the greatest generation."

[DJL 232]

1 minute ago, billvon said:

There will some people for whom that will be true - but there are other benefits to having such service be in such people's backgrounds.  And the majority of teenagers are not "unmotivated" and will not "just dick around" - you just disagree with their motivations and their goals, which is fine.

?? Uh, right.  We've had drafts; they weren't considered unAmerican.  Indeed, they were part of what produced a generation often described as "the greatest generation."

"There will some people for whom that will be true...."

Certainly, just like those who go to the Academies are some of the most intelligent and highly motivated people in the country.  I know I'm painting a picture that throws all teenagers into the category of couch potatoes and I know that's not the case.  I don't see any system doing a better job at getting something from those graduating seniors that they couldn't do better themselves by perusing their own career path.  You're certainly not going to get something out of them at large by training them for some year long job as chosen by the state.  What would that job be, anyway?  Trash pickers, typists...?

"?? Uh, right.  We've had drafts; they weren't considered unAmerican.  "

See above, I said mandatory service as a prerequisite for citizenship, the draft is a different issue.  

[billvon 2,396]

1 minute ago, DJL said:

Certainly, just like those who go to the Academies are some of the most intelligent and highly motivated people in the country.  I know I'm painting a picture that throws all teenagers into the category of couch potatoes and I know that's not the case.  I don't see any system doing a better job at getting something from those graduating seniors that they couldn't do better themselves by perusing their own career path.  You're certainly not going to get something out of them at large by training them for some year long job as chosen by the state.  What would that job be, anyway?  Trash pickers, typists...?

For some it won't work.  For some it will.  You still come out ahead.

If the service isn't oriented to give people a wider experience base then it won't work.  But that's not hard to do.  Put a kid from Detroit to work as a park ranger assistant for a year; put a kid from rural Montana to work as a clerical assistant at a big university.  They will both get experience that will put them in better shape for the future.

I once spent a month with a girlfriend in the Peace Corps in Africa.  And I realized that the biggest benefit of the Peace Corps wasn't the work they did for the local population, although that was significant.  It was that these people were going to go back to the US and become business leaders, politicians and authors - and having people like that really understand the third world would do more good than anything else.

[DJL 232]

14 hours ago, billvon said:

For some it won't work.  For some it will.  You still come out ahead.

I agree with the intent of it but I think it would swing towards 'for some it will work'.  People accepted into the Peace Corps are typically very passionate but in the real world high school graduating class there is a very broad spectrum.  That's not even to get into the group of people who would see it as forced servitude or state run slavery and be entirely against it.  I know that may sound a little dramatic.

[airdvr 197]

People have that option now.  After 2 years of non-productivity at Akron U my son wasn't asked back for year three.  Long story short he's in his 7th year in the Navy.  He's learned a trade that will serve him well for the rest of his life.  No one forced him to do this (although I did exert some pressure ).

Free tuition is just an extension of the ease of access to student loans.  I'm convinced there is a group of career students who put off venturing out into the real world by staying in school until their access to student loans is exhausted.  Imagine if staying in school was free.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Sounds like a bit of a strawman argument. Nobody is really advocating for free tuition for life without checks and balances.

Now imagine a place where billionaires pay taxes and people off all socio-economic backgrounds can get a quality education.

[kallend 1,623]

17 hours ago, airdvr said:

  I'm convinced there is a group of career students who put off venturing out into the real world by staying in school until their access to student loans is exhausted.  Imagine if staying in school was free.

Must be why there are so many perpetual students in Germany, Norway, Denmark and Finland where college is free.

Oh, wait, there aren't.

 

Maybe Airdvr doesn't understand how it works.

[winsor 186]

On 5/8/2019 at 6:35 AM, airdvr said:

On the surface I'm sure it sounds great.  In reality I think it's a bad idea in it's current form.  You might as well just make the K-12 system a K-16 system.  The only way I think it would work is to give credit for performance.  Perform well and we'll refund your fees, or excuse your loan.  I have no interest in paying for someone to party for 4 years.

Tuition free college is a reality in this country at quite a number of first-rate schools.  At each of these institutions the student body is hardly made up of slackers, and they have 100% placement rate upon graduation.

Of course not everybody qualifies for West Point, Annapolis, King's Point and the like but, having worked with their graduates, I consider their education to be money well spent.

[riggerrob 558]

I agree with the concept of 18 months of national service.

I served 13 years in the Canadian Armed Forces. I learned far more as a drunken sailor than I ever learned in university. The difference was that I dragged my hung-over body out of bed for bus tours, museum tours, the occasional skydive, etc. The first thing I did ashore was visit a local restaurant .... not because ship's food was bad, .... but it was boring after a month, and I wanted a change of flavours. I made a point of learning a bit of local history and local geography and a few words in the local language, etc. I also learned that enlisted men are always "put down" by their superiors. I also asked to many embarrassing questions. Clearly I was too bright for that line of work.

But military service is not the only way to serve your country, Medical, fire-fighting, food, educating, old folks homes, etc. all provide ways to serve. With proper planning, students will emerge with new job skills. That "gap year" provides students with a chance to rethink their life plans. A year flipping burgers is a great incentive to study hard at college.

Free tuition only becomes a problem when it becomes an entitlement. For example, the brightest 5 or 10 percent of French students used to get a free-ride through university. That makes perfect sense for the brightest 5 or 10 percent. They will become the most productive members of society and will eventually pay more in taxes than their tuition cost the country. Fair deal!

But it becomes a problem when they grow entitled to a free-ride for the rest of their lives.