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CoolBeans

Toggle fire mechanics

Question

Can somebody please explain to me mechanics of why released toggle can cause violent turn? How heavy could the toggle be? 0.1-0.2 lbs? Why is such a small weight on one side vs no weight (toggle still stowed/attached) on the other side causing violent turn?

Flying normally, with both toggles released/unstowed, in order to create most violent possible turn I would have to have left toggle above head and right toggle all the way down to the knee. If I just let that 'knee toggle' (right) hang on its own it's going to stay around me head, it won't go all the way down to the knee on its own. It's not heavy enough to go any lower than my head level. And toggle around my head should NOT cause extreme turn.

My experiences are from a big student canopy, maybe other canopies behave differently?

Is there any difference between stowed toggle vs unstowed but held all the way up? I would think no...

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(edited)

I just watched this video. I understand now that the toggle that's stowed behaves exactly like unstowed one pulled about 50% down, is that correct?

In the case of left toggle fire, canopy will start turning right?

 

Edited by CoolBeans

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You need a rigger or packs to sit down with you and show you exactly how the brake settings work on a canopy.

The quick answer is that with the brakes set the control lines are pulled down to a setting lower than full flight. The tail is deflected.

If one side releases from that setting before the other you have one side with the brakes pulled down, and the other with the canopy in full flight. Which results in a turn.

It has nothing to do with weight of the toggles, and everything to do with how far down the tail is pulled by the brakes, or not.

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In theory you're correct, but there's so many other things that might factor into a "violent" turn caused by a toggle fire.

Have people at your DZ explain it in detail.

I myself didn't experience a "violent" turn because of toggle fire 'till I flew a elliptical canopy with a wingload at 2.0-2.2.

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The two main factors combined to make the turn violent. First when one toggle is stowed that side of the canopy is deflected a bit like it would be in a turn. The second factor is that the canopy when initially opening is in a stall. When these are combined it can lead to a rapid spin. Any jumper that has intentionally done a helicopter would understand how it works. 

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54 minutes ago, timski said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soAirkFeyFU

 

watch me experience said event. watch me fix the malfunction. 

For others: Skip to 2:25. And turn your volume down.
Nice job getting out of spinning line twists. And then dealing with the popped toggle. The video is kind of good in that it shows less than instant & perfect reactions too (not a "See I'm great" video), as it takes a while to reach up far enough to get to the toggle. (Sunk in harness a bit from G's? Wingsuit restricting arms?) Actually he happens to get to the stowed toggle just before the popped toggle. Whatever works!

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1 hour ago, timski said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soAirkFeyFU

 

watch me experience said event. watch me fix the malfunction. 

That looks pretty crazy. Do you remember what you were thinking? Were you altitude aware? Seems like you had your mind set on getting to these toggles, did you know right away it was toggle fire malfunction? I noticed you attempted some rear riser play to get the canopy to fly straight but it was unsuccessful.

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2 hours ago, pchapman said:

For others: Skip to 2:25. And turn your volume down.
Nice job getting out of spinning line twists. And then dealing with the popped toggle. The video is kind of good in that it shows less than instant & perfect reactions too (not a "See I'm great" video), as it takes a while to reach up far enough to get to the toggle. (Sunk in harness a bit from G's? Wingsuit restricting arms?) Actually he happens to get to the stowed toggle just before the popped toggle. Whatever works!

haha, less than perfect for sure! yes and yes, the G's were real, and all I needed to due was unzip my left wing instead of riding the stuggle bus! 

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2 hours ago, CoolBeans said:

That looks pretty crazy. Do you remember what you were thinking? Were you altitude aware? Seems like you had your mind set on getting to these toggles, did you know right away it was toggle fire malfunction? I noticed you attempted some rear riser play to get the canopy to fly straight but it was unsuccessful.

Fully altitude aware and knew straight away what the mal was and how to fix it... As a very new wingsuiter I had pulled at around 5000, for reasons!  So Travis gave me a debrief, the likely cause was poor body position during deployment (dipping shoulder/maybe a little head low). Also NO WS mods on an older Wings rig didn't help any! Learn from others.     

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Timski - you need shorter toggles.  Having to lunge up to get them, when time is of the essence, is a tell.

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