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gowlerk

Stupid firearm accident thread

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36 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Also, your 200,000 women who annually defend themselves with guns, and I'm assuming that it's not the same women each year, has to be way off. 

This article has been floating around the Internet of late and has been re-published by many different venues. 

http://thinkaboutnow.com/2016/06/study-guns-stop-crime-2-5-million-times-each-year/

Fact is:

Quote

 

In some places and in some instances, women have, in fact, used guns to successfully defend themselves. But the case that gun rights advocates make when pitching guns as essential to women’s personal and family security goes beyond the anecdotal, leaning heavily on an oft-cited 1995 study by the Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck — a study built on faulty research.

In his findings, Kleck estimated that women use guns to defend themselves 1.2 million times per year, and that 200,000 such defensive gun uses stopped sexual assaults. Those estimates have proved to be wildly inflated. Successful defensive gun use is, in fact, extremely rare among all people: There are fewer than 1,600 verified instances in the U.S. each year, according to the Gun Violence Archive. By comparison, annually, 118,000 people are injured, killed, or kill themselves with a gun.

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/05/gun-ownership-makes-women-safer-debunked/

 

EDIT: You'll notice Kleck's research is cited in the first article. The first article pops up about once a year even though it was written in 2016 and has been debunked several times since its first publication. 

Edited by BIGUN

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2 hours ago, billeisele said:

300 - 400 million gun owners. If there was a gun problem you would know it.

I assume this is a joke.  There are ~40,000 gun deaths a year. 

Compare that to terrorism, which 99% of Americans agree is a problem.  Terrorists kill about 160 people a year in the US every year.  Even in the worst attack on American soil ever, 3000 people died.  And for that we shut down air travel, completely overhauled airport security and created a new branch of the government.

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On 12/17/2020 at 1:20 PM, billeisele said:

In the UK guns were banned in 1997. By 2007 the violence rate increased 77% to 2,034 per 100,000 people, that's 2 per minute. The primary weapon is a kitchen knife. In the US it's 466 per 100,000.  Sources BBC and UK News

I was wondering when this might crop up. First, the comparison is completely invalid - what you are seeing is a huge difference in reporting standards, not in the numbers of comparable crimes actually happening.

Second, if it were true it would be saying the opposite of what you want it to. If there were so many more violent assaults in the UK, why are there so many more murders in the USA? Why is the firearm murder rate alone in the USA so much higher than the total murder rate in the UK? If the citizenry of the UK were that much more violent in general than their US counterparts, what possible reason apart from the pervasive gun culture of the USA could there be for US citizens committing so, so many more murders?

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Until we understand and address the root cause nothing will change. It's proven that banning guns doesn't work. Let's start with something no one can argue about. The lack of mental health resources and addressing poverty are not new issues.

You think no-one can argue with that? What rock have you been living under? Draw the Venn diagram and see how much overlap there is between the 'no gun control!' and the 'cut benefits and health services!' groups. Spoiler alert - it's massive.

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1 minute ago, jakee said:

You think no-one can argue with that? What rock have you been living under? Draw the Venn diagram and see how much overlap there is between the 'no gun control!' and the 'cut benefits and health services!' groups. Spoiler alert - it's massive.

Part of the "I got mine, fuck you" coalition.

 

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6 hours ago, billeisele said:

Let's also not forget the number of times someone with a gun kills a criminal. That stopped how many more sheep from being victimized?

None. Hoofed animals are well known for being unable to use tools. I guess you're a city slicker!

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Guns are not the root problem and taking them away from law abiding citizens won't solve anything. 

Your own arguments suggest otherwise.

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5 hours ago, billvon said:

I assume this is a joke.  There are ~40,000 gun deaths a year. 

Compare that to terrorism, which 99% of Americans agree is a problem.  Terrorists kill about 160 people a year in the US every year.  Even in the worst attack on American soil ever, 3000 people died.  And for that we shut down air travel, completely overhauled airport security and created a new branch of the government.

If there are 100,000,000 gun owners and there are 40,000 gun deaths per year then, providing all responsibilities are shared as equally as all rights, every gun owner is responsible for .04% of all gun deaths each year. I'll further assume that means that 99.96% of gun owners see no problems. That seems about right.

Edited by JoeWeber

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I was pretty shocked during my first visit in Eloy. Got a ride from the DZ to the airport by a fellow skydiver. First thing he did in his car was to open the glovebox and throw his gun which was stowed there on the backseat. 
 

How can you leave a gun in a car ? 
 

For me places like SDAZ should have a gun safe for the customers at the office so as not to leave an arsenal in the parking lot. 

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2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If there are 100,000,000 gun owners and there are 40,000 gun deaths per year then, providing all responsibilities are shared as equally as all rights, every gun owner is responsible for .04% of all gun deaths each year. I'll further assume that means that 99.96% of gun owners see no problems. That seems about right.

Obvious solution there is just get gun ownership in the US to 1 billion people, then no one has any responsibility for anything, as it should be.

 

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14 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Bill, there may be 400 million guns owned in America but it's actually like 100 million gun owners, I think. Also, your 200,000 women who annually defend themselves with guns, and I'm assuming that it's not the same women each year, has to be way off. 

Joe - The stats on gun ownership vary from 270 - 400 million. No doubt it's hard to know the real number. A Pew Research Center study shows 40% of individuals either own a gun or live in a home with a gun. Again, probably another stat that's difficult to track. You are right, it's probably in the range of 25-40% of owners. If the average household is 2 people and 25% own guns then 50% of households have at least one gun. If the average is 1.5 then it's 37.5% of households have one.

The women self-defense data came from this paper. Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun (americangunfacts.com) Someone else pointed out that this data is flawed. The logic describing the flaw appears valid. It is an unusually high number.

The primary point to this data is if guns were the problem there would be a lot more shootings.

Edited by billeisele

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23 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Joe - The stats on gun ownership vary from 270 - 400 million. No doubt it's hard to know the real number. A Pew Research Center study shows 40% of individuals either own a gun or live in a home with a gun.

Yet "The share of Americans who say gun laws in the U.S. should be made stricter has increased from 52% in 2017 to 60% this year, according to a survey conducted in September 2019." PEW study

23 minutes ago, billeisele said:

... You are right, it's probably in the range of 25-40% of owners. If the average household is 2 people and 25% own guns then 50% of households have at least one gun.

That not how statistics work you don't add up the same subsets to get a larger overall group. "Three-in-ten American adults (30%) say they personally own a gun, and an additional 11% say they live with someone who does," Which is 41% Which suggests that every other American surveyed wants stricter gun controls.

23 minutes ago, billeisele said:

The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology is a peer-reviewed, student-run academic journal

23 minutes ago, billeisele said:

...The primary point to this data is if guns were the problem there would be a lot more shootings.

More than 40,000 dead per year, There are approximately 115,000 non-fatal firearm injuries in the U.S. each year.

Gun violence costs the US $229 billion annually: Report

21 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Please provide the sources for that.

Easy to find why don't you look in some of the other threads in this forum. The figures for all western countries have been cited in SC before. Number of guns, country, fatalities, etc. The feigning of ignorance in debate doesn't help your credibility.

Edited by Phil1111

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11 hours ago, billvon said:

I assume this is a joke.  There are ~40,000 gun deaths a year. 

Compare that to terrorism, which 99% of Americans agree is a problem.  Terrorists kill about 160 people a year in the US every year.  Even in the worst attack on American soil ever, 3000 people died.  And for that we shut down air travel, completely overhauled airport security and created a new branch of the government.

Bill - suicide is a major part of that number. According to the National Institute of Mental Health in 2018 guns were used 24,400 times for suicide. Not to minimize that problem but that is a self-inflicted injury. Some may not have happened if a gun wasn't available but poisoning and suffocation are the other top two methods totaling to 20,000.

FBI data shows that gun murders are in the 14,000 - 15,000 range, still a big number. That jives with total gun deaths of suicide plus murders, 24,000 + 15,000 = ~40,000

It doesn't seem accurate to put murder and terrorism in the same bucket for comparison. Both are unacceptable problems.

The primary points are that guns aren't the problem, and taking guns or restricting access to guns from law-abiding citizens won't solve the gun crime problem.

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13 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Agree, these are tragic. A lack of training, knowledge and safety. Requiring proof of firearms training is a reasonable requirement but even that won't prevent accidents. 

The point is that a tiny fraction of gun owners cause these problems. That's not justification to ban firearms.

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10 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Seems that you are the "stupid, improper, unsafe, accident, murder with a gun use" reporter. No problem. There are plenty of opportunities. According to FBI stats about 15,000 a year, 41 a day.

Not sure but doubt there are any specific stats kept on the millions possibly 10s of millions of safe gun use incidents annually. That happens 10s of thousands times daily with hunting, recreation, concealed carry, etc. as compared to the 41 daily misuses. Not to minimize the 41, they are all unacceptable.

The point made earlier is it's unreasonable to restrict law-abiding citizens the right to self-protection, recreation, hunting and other legal types of firearm use because a tiny percent of gun owners are criminals or idiots. Address the problem not the weapon.

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Just now, billeisele said:

Seems that you are the "stupid, improper, unsafe, accident, murder with a gun use" reporter. No problem. There are plenty of opportunities. According to FBI stats about 15,000 a year, 41 a day.

If you did not know, this is the "stupid firearm accident" thread. The one I started for a reason. Carry on though, don't mind me bothering you with little things like dead children. I know that philosophical arguments about the nuances of gun rights in America are far more important than the lives of a few children.

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8 hours ago, jakee said:

Draw the Venn diagram and see how much overlap there is between the 'no gun control!' and the 'cut benefits and health services!' groups. Spoiler alert - it's massive.

I'm not in the no-gun control crowd or the cut benefits group. But I do believe that law-abiding responsible citizens should have access to firearms.

Yes there should be changes. One suggested earlier is mandatory firearms training before a firearm can be purchased. In South Carolina if you hunt and were born after June 30, 1979 you are required to take a Hunter Education Course. It takes a few hours and is not easy. No reason not to require something similar for pistols and other guns.

Not sure about nation-wide but in SC funding for mental health assistance dropped significantly 30+ years ago and the mental hospital was closed. I don't remember why but there was some change in the law that shifted that responsibility but it was never properly addressed. It's a much needed service.

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