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brenthutch

Green new deal equals magical thinking

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3 hours ago, richravizza said:

I'm out to smoke a fatty.

That could explain some of your confusion here!

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In what world do you live in that tells you we will use less energy in the future and the poor will pay less?

A world that follows the same history that it has been following so far.  In 1960, average power costs in the US were 21 cents a kwhr (in 2014 dollars.)  In 2014, average power costs in the US were 12.5 cents a kwhr - a 59% decrease.

Plus which, energy efficiency has gone up.  To light a room to the same brightness as in 1960 now takes 70% less energy using LED bulbs.  And LED bulbs have become so cheap that they cost less to use over the course of their lifetimes than incandescents.    So that's an 84% decrease in energy costs for the same amount of light.

This will continue.

"But California!" you yell.  Average price in CA is 16.7 cents a kilowatt-hour.  So even in evil liberal solar-loving poor-hating communist California, costs are lower than they were in 1960 in real money.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=20372

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What is  the price for gas in California compared to the rest of the Nation?I just payed $4.49  DOUBLE the national averages.

Yep.  I fill up about once every six months, so that's $90 a year for gas  I've been driving about 10K miles a year.  What do you pay a year for gas?

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6 minutes ago, billvon said:

People who breathe high concentrations of it.  In 1986, 1700 people around Lake Nyos died when the lake released some CO2.  That's why it's considered a toxic gas at high concentrations.

Of course that's not the problem here, as you well know.  The problem with CO2 is that it is a greenhouse gas, and at concentrations well below the levels that make us sick, it warms the climate - which results in things like rising sea levels, heat waves and droughts.  That's why it is a pollutant when it's in the atmosphere.

Again rediculous, a Volcano!!!,stop digging.We all know what AGW Theory is here. You need not  remind me like a child or big brother with wiki link.

I spent Days on the realclimate web site dispelling myths.I came out with the sames conclusion as brent.
 

 

 

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Just now, richravizza said:

We all know what AGW Theory is here. You need not  remind me like a child or big brother with wiki link.

Good!  So I imagine you will abandon your childish "CO2 isn't a pollutant because it doesn't make me, personally, sick" stance.

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27 minutes ago, billvon said:

But California!" you yell.  Average price in CA is 16.7 cents a kilowatt-hour.  So even in evil liberal solar-loving poor-hating communist California, costs are lower than they were in 1960 in real money.

So is the price for a gallon of gas,in any other State but California of course.

My dad payed a quarter a gallon his minimum wage payed $1.00 he got four gallons.Today at $ 2.50 a gallon, the minimum wage earner gets about four gallons.Here in LA the minimum wage earner gets two.So As matter of fact, because of our polocies the Average poor of California gets half as much as the  poor of the rest of the country.

None here are evil or Communist although Hollywood sure loved Venezuela and their abundant "Natural resourses" you know the typical hypocrites.

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(edited)
4 hours ago, billvon said:

Good!  So I imagine you will abandon your childish "CO2 isn't a pollutant because it doesn't make me, personally, sick" stance.

Nope, its not childish, its logical. You made the riduculous statement.

Basic logic doesn't seem to fit your brand.This is the reason Micheal Moore need not debate.

Yep.  I fill up about once every six months, so that's $90 a year for gas  I've been driving about 10K miles a year.  What do you pay a year for gas?

You got Me...I pay much more than you  and I'm sure I earn a third or less than you so.... thanks for making my point. 

 

  •  
Edited by richravizza
typo again

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(edited)
14 hours ago, billvon said:

If this surprises anyone, they aren't paying attention.  Any new technology is adopted first by the wealthy.

Then why do you need a tax subsidy?  The only thing more selfish than someone who wants to keep their own money, is someone who wants to take someone else's.

Edited by brenthutch

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(edited)
11 hours ago, richravizza said:

 

edit HVAC systems in hospitals, nursing homes do not scrub co2.

No, they don't, the system brings in more outdoor air and exhausts more indoor air, sometimes with the use of an energy recovery ventilator.  There's no "scrubber", it's a system of dampers on the inlet and return/exhaust ductwork or internal to the HVAC unit. I know this because I designed those systems for about 10 years.  It's really not that complex of an issue and I'm not sure why you feel there's a conspiracy but those systems do operate that way.  And yes, I'm familiar with the idea of unscrupulous building owners disabling a building automation system.  It's a dumb idea that in a modern system doesn't save them much money and during certain times of the year actually wastes money.

Edited by DJL

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3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Then why do you need a tax subsidy?  

You don't.  There are no subsidies around EV's these days, just tax breaks.

Why are you so against tax breaks?  Do you really want higher taxes?  Why not let people keep more of their hard earned money?

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12 hours ago, richravizza said:

You got Me...I pay much more than you   . . .

Your choice.  Also another good example of how in the future we will use more energy but have to buy less of it.

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Nope, its not childish, its logical. 

No, sorry.  CFC's are pollutants because they damage the ozone layer; it's taken us years to mitigate that damage.  You cannot claim "they don't hurt me too much so they're not pollutants!"

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None here are evil or Communist although Hollywood sure loved Venezuela and their abundant "Natural resourses" you know the typical hypocrites.

OK.  So you hate Hollywood.  Not sure what that has to do with anything, other than maybe you think that since I live closer to Hollywood than you do that I am therefore allied with them or something.  Is that another example of your "basic logic?"

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My dad payed a quarter a gallon his minimum wage payed $1.00 he got four gallons.Today at $ 2.50 a gallon, the minimum wage earner gets about four gallons.Here in LA the minimum wage earner gets two.So As matter of fact, because of our polocies the Average poor of California gets half as much as the  poor of the rest of the country.

OK great, let's do the math!  The math doesn't lie.

I have no idea when your dad bought that gas or what he drove, so I will go with US averages.  The last time gas cost 25 cents a gallon was in 1948.  At that time the minimum wage was 40 cents an hour, and average fuel economy was 15mpg.  

So let's say your dad had to drive 32 miles a day (US average commute.)  Back then he'd use 2.1 gallons to do that.  He'd have to work for 1.3 hours to afford that.

Today minimum wage is $7.25, cars average 25mpg and gas costs $4.18 a gallon in evil socialist California.  Today he'd need 1.3 gallons to do that drive.  He'd have to work for .75 hours to afford that.

So even in California he'd be working far less to pay for his gas today.

 

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(edited)
13 hours ago, richravizza said:

Taking Tax money from the poor and giving it to the rich.

A sort of Reverse Robin Hood,does that make it clearer.A lot of that happens here in the city of angles.

This thread is about The GND its about the future of energy in America.Highly Political so...

Will you be voting in the US? Because,

You haven't  dispelled any of my "talking Points", so whats your point?

I dont mind being offended, thats political discourse.

"Don't think there is much use in discussing science based issues with heavily biased opinions."

Science,dude.. the guy just said people get sick from CO2.

Are you so bias that you accept that?

 

 

Watch this and tell me again how you are taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich through tax breaks. You have systematically lowered taxes on the rich. If that is your concern, I would suggest stop supporting the GOP and change your taxation structure.

 

https://twitter.com/DLeonhardt/status/1181004566088814594?s=20

 

People do get sick from CO2. People get sick from O2 as well. Some people die after drinking too much H2O. All science. All happens.

Edited by SkyDekker

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35 minutes ago, billvon said:

You don't.  There are no subsidies around EV's these days, just tax breaks.

Why are you so against tax breaks?  Do you really want higher taxes?  Why not let people keep more of their hard earned money?

Elon Musk calls them subsidies, I think he would know.

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5 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Elon Musk calls them subsidies, I think he would know.

He also thinks cave divers are pedophiles and child rapists, and that we are living in a giant video game.  I wouldn't worship him as the ultimate source of truth if I were you.

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2 hours ago, DJL said:

No, they don't, the system brings in more outdoor air and exhausts more indoor air, sometimes with the use of an energy recovery ventilator.  There's no "scrubber", it's a system of dampers on the inlet and return/exhaust ductwork or internal to the HVAC unit. I know this because I designed those systems for about 10 years.  It's really not that complex of an issue and I'm not sure why you feel there's a conspiracy but those systems do operate that way.  And yes, I'm familiar with the idea of unscrupulous building owners disabling a building automation system.  It's a dumb idea that in a modern system doesn't save them much money and during certain times of the year actually wastes money.

Prior to college, I spent 7 years working at a hospital managing electrical/HVAC/plumbing systems.

The air handlers pulled in 100% outdoor air, and that was what was sent it to the rooms. 

There was no recirculation at all, and no energy recovery.

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(edited)
2 hours ago, ryoder said:

Prior to college, I spent 7 years working at a hospital managing electrical/HVAC/plumbing systems.

The air handlers pulled in 100% outdoor air, and that was what was sent it to the rooms. 

There was no recirculation at all, and no energy recovery.

Plate and enthalpy wheel heat exchanges can and are used in Hospitals.  Desiccant wheels can transfer contaminants between the exhaust and entering air but there are other enthalpy wheel heat exchangers that don't.  That must have been pretty expensive.  It's no wonder we had so much work renovating hospital systems.

Edited by DJL

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7 hours ago, ryoder said:

richravizza needs to tell the Apollo 13 crew that they were needlessly worried about CO2:

https://www.universetoday.com/119857/13-more-things-that-saved-apollo-13-part-5-the-co2-partial-pressure-sensor/

You got me there, I am in full agreement that we will start to have a problem when global CO2 levels exceed 20,000 ppm.  Just let me know the scenario where that might happen and I will be on board with whatever scheme you come up with to prevent it.

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16 hours ago, brenthutch said:

You got me there, I am in full agreement that we will start to have a problem when global CO2 levels exceed 20,000 ppm. 

Thank you for acknowledging that CO2 is a pollutant.  Perhaps now you will be able to read a little more on the science behind climate change?

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(edited)

 

On 10/9/2019 at 6:18 AM, DJL said:

And yes, I'm familiar with the idea of unscrupulous building owners disabling a building automation system.  It's a dumb idea that in a modern system doesn't save them much money and during certain times of the year actually wastes money.

I had No Idea, I guess nieve, what some people would do, for a buck.

 

On 10/9/2019 at 8:29 AM, SkyDekker said:

You have systematically lowered taxes on the rich. If that is your concern, I would suggest stop supporting the GOP and change your taxation structure.

Eat the Rich is it...    I dont think we'll agree.

Iv'e been waiting for Trumps Tax policy since Reagan.

On 10/8/2019 at 8:43 PM, richravizza said:

My dad payed a quarter a gallon his minimum wage payed $1.00

 

On 10/9/2019 at 8:07 AM, billvon said:

I have no idea when your dad bought that gas or what he drove, so I will go with US averages.  The last time gas cost 25 cents a gallon was in 1948.

Sorry Bill, I should have looked it up, My Dads dates and prices may be off.I beleive it was during the price wars.  But found this !!!!   He's still all there!!!!

1967   $1.00 Hour  

https://stuffnobodycaresabout.com/2014/02/24/gas-price-wars-1967-style/

Bill could you please run the Numbers for me?

Edited by richravizza

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1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Rich,

Just out of high school in 1958 I made $1.25/hr.  And a lot of my classmates made more with jobs in factories, construction, etc.

What did he do that paid so little?

Jerry Baumchen

One of his first stories..It was his first job while in Highschool,a machine Shop, swept in floors for minimum wage.An apprenticeship in Sprinfeild Mass. 1957    I looked it up he was right!!!

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(edited)
On 10/1/2019 at 9:39 PM, JoeWeber said:

Hey Jerry,

Here's a picture of my dad and some of his Antifa friends over Ploesti, Romania protesting an assemblage of white nationalists. He strongly believed in a strong military but he also believed, as did Eisenhower, it should not be who we are.

Ploesti.png

What an awesome Pic.....Couple years back the City of Taft,CA. Had a Centenial Celebration(?)and had one of the last surviving Mitchells come to the airportI had to take a pass on the opportunity to jump it,the ticket was too steep,and I had kids.. As I looked inside the Bombay,I was amazed and terrified.The unique smell of her,gave me chills,as I thought of  All those Fucking snags hazards, everywhere !!

As a kid, I romanticized about it all.Then it all  came crashin down,in a heartbeat,in that second.That beautiful flying fighting bird, was a cold metal coffin.It turned into something that never emagined.

I worked aircraft fuel systems in the Air Force and got into some precarious situations inside the wings,but I had never gotten claustrophobic.There I was,feet on the ground,fresh air flowing and I'm Scared shitless.

My depest respect and adoration for your Dad and all his Brothers in Arms.

I find you thoughtful and level headed.So Please,dont get pissed or think this is some sort of attack,its not.Just thoughtful possitive criticism.

It was Your choose of adjictives, I found Quite interesting.Damn how times change so.

While being Historiclly correct.I dont think they apply to our society  today..

I was in the Cold War.So if you will....just an exercise.

"Me and My Black and Brown Nationalist buddies When to stop the Leftist  and their Socialist Totalitarian ways, from pushing thru the Fulda Gap.

the reason for my word play is this..

Antfa today, isn't your Dads Antifa, the only thing they have incommon is Name.

They represent nothin more than a "bundle of sticks".Antifa represent the same shit,my Grandfather fled Italy from.They stop Jewish and Gay men from speaking  becuase they Might be offended.They limit the sope of acceptible thought and speech, they are the Fascists 

 

Edited by richravizza

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2 minutes ago, richravizza said:

What an awesiome Pic.....Couple years back the City of Taft,CA. Ha a Centenial Celebration(?) had one of  last surviving Mitchells come in to the airport.I missed the opportunity to jump it,the ticket was too steep,and I had kids.. As I looked inside the Bombay,I was amazed and terrified.The unique smell of her,gave me chills,as I thought of  All those *ucking snags hazards, everywhere !! As a kid, I romanticized about it all and it all  came crashin down in a heartbeat,in that second.That beautiful flying fighting bird, was a cold metal coffin.It turned into something that never emagined. I worked aircraft fuel systems in the Air Force and got into some precarious situations inside the wings,but I had never gotten claustrophobic.There I was feet on the ground,fresh air flowing and I'm Scared shitless.My depest respect and adoration for your Dad and all his Brothers in Arms.

I find you thoughtful and level headed.So Please take dont get pissed or think this is some sort of attack in any way,its not.Just thoughtful possitive criticism.

It was Your chose of adjictives, I found Quite interesting.Damn how times change so.

While being Historiclly correct.I dont think they apply to our society  today..

I was in the Cold War.So if you will....just an exercise.

"Me and My Black and Brown Nationalist buddies When to stop the Leftist  and their Socialist Totalitarian ways from pushing thru the Fulda Gap,on there way to crush and enslave all free men.

the reason for my word play is this..

Antfa today, isn't your Dads Antifa, the only thing they have incommon is Name.

They are now, represent nothin more than a "bundle of sticks".They represent the same shit my Grandfather fled from.They stop Jewish and Gay men from speaking our campuses becuase they Might be offended.They limit the sope of acceptible thought and speech, they are the Fascists 

 

I take no offense, far from it. I do not argue there is an equivalency, it was simply a clumsy use of a current term. I was told this picture was from the day they bombed Bad Vöslau, Austria.

757th.png

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