Green new deal equals magical thinking

[richravizza 25]

6 minutes ago, billvon said:

You'd be wrong on the first count.  (New Hampshire actually.)

On the second count, definitely.  It would be a LOT easier to live in space if it had any of those things.  As it stands, they rely on their technology to never fail.

The coversation wasn't about living on the ISS,Its about staying alive in dead of winter in Vermont, on renewables, in the context of the GND.

I still can't comprehend the use of the term "renewable batteries."Kinda like a renewable gas tank, but any who...

I meant, your solar panels and battery packs wouldn't last the winter on their own.Theres no way to run a fridge, wash cloths, dishes,light, heat water,heat your home, and cook all your meals,Oh and charge your car. its impossible. The GND equals majical thinking.

25 minutes ago, billvon said:

Better than "OMG!  AOC is taking over the country and will bankrupt us!  She will take trillions from our wallets, put the UN in charge and make us all gay marry!"

 Whoa..

I thought this was an intellectual conversation based on science,about energy, AGW and the GND Pipe dream,the later, I'm going to indulge in right now, before I retort.. 

 

 

 

[brenthutch 383]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

Better than "OMG!  AOC is taking over the country and will bankrupt us!  She will take trillions from our wallets, put the UN in charge and make us all gay marry!"

non se·qui·tur

/ˌnän ˈsekwədər/

noun

a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.

[Stumpy 256]

1 hour ago, richravizza said:

 its impossible. The GND equals majical thinking.

 

 

 

To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke, anything can seem like magic to those that aren't capable of understanding it.

[billvon 2,396]

2 hours ago, richravizza said:

The coversation wasn't about living on the ISS,Its about staying alive in dead of winter in Vermont, on renewables, in the context of the GND.., before I retort.. 

 

Yes.  And I pointed out that the ISS relies 100% on solar in an environment far colder (and far hotter, and far less conducive to life in every way) than Vermont.  Compared to the ISS, Vermont is a piece of cake.

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I still can't comprehend the use of the term "renewable batteries."Kinda like a renewable gas tank, but any who...

You can charge a battery thousands of times.  It's like your gas tank, but you refill it with energy (renewable) rather than gasoline (not renewable.)  And when the battery wears out you can recycle it and reuse the materials again.  In other words - renewable.

Quote

I meant, your solar panels and battery packs wouldn't last the winter on their own.

Of course they would.  Despite what Trump claims, solar panels work better in cold weather - and batteries last longer.

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Theres no way to run a fridge, wash cloths, dishes,light, heat water,heat your home, and cook all your meals,Oh and charge your car. its impossible. The GND equals majical thinking.

And yet Burlington, VT runs 100% on renewable energy.  And if you want an example of a house (and farm) that runs 100% on solar alone, take a look at the Krag's home in Shelburne.

https://www.buildingenergyvt.com/solar-energy/krag-solar-farm/

The people who claim it's impossible should get out of the way of the people actually doing it.  It's almost as if the people who claim it's all "magical thinking" are engaging in a bit of it themselves; thinking that if they cover their eyes, they won't see it and therefore it's "magical."

Quote

I thought this was an intellectual conversation based on science,about energy, AGW and the GND Pipe dream.

And yet you consider ”OMG! We are running out of oil while we are destroying the planet!  We have to do something!  Think about the cute fuzzy polar bears” to be an intellectual conversation based on science. I think you may be experiencing some cognitive dissonance.

[brenthutch 383]

38 minutes ago, billvon said:

 

And yet you consider ”OMG! We are running out of oil while we are destroying the planet!  We have to do something!  Think about the cute fuzzy polar bears” to be an intellectual conversation based on science. I think you may be experiencing some cognitive dissonance.

Speaking of cognitive dissonance; the whole OMG running out of oil, destroying the planet, what about the cute fuzzy bears narrative is promulgated by your side.  I’m just laughing at it.  I don’t think AOC is a threat.  I think she and her wacky ideas are an albatross that will be hung around the neck of every Democrat in the next election.

[brenthutch 383]

Bill, you seem to have two different positions that are at odds.

Position #1  Renewables are ready to go!  You provide several examples to support that notion and have even quarreled with me on this very thread when I suggested otherwise.

Position #2 Renewables are NOT ready for prime time and we urgently need to develop them before the cheep oil runs out.  To quote you; "Think about how much it will suck when we run out without alternatives ready to go."

You mentioned cognitive dissonance, I can not think of a better example. 

[DJL 232]

On 5/17/2019 at 2:24 PM, richravizza said:

He's a lobbyist for the nuke industry and his TED talk was just more blah blah blah blah.

This seem to be a recurring theme,

if  dont like the message, dismiss the messenger as a morally bankrupt, contenpable money hungry Lobbyist.

Or just attack the messengers motive, intellect and their education.So liberal and progressive.

Meaning that his message was entirely anti everything but nuke.  As I said above, I'm happy to hitch a wagon to him because I agree that we need to revitalize the nuke industry in order to counter use of fossil fuels.  Nuke energy is a good fit in many places where renewables won't work but this guy (as a lobbyist for the nuke industry) won't admit that there are also places where renewables will work better than or work with nuke energy.

[DJL 232]

 

17 hours ago, richravizza said:

Mental athleticism,you deffinatly never spent a winter in Vermont.

I think you forgot, space dont have No clouds, rain or snow.

What is your deal with trying to making everything about Vermont?  They DO use both solar hydronic heating and PVs, as in rooftop solar collectors.  I HAVE spent many winters in Vermont in the engineering and construction field on projects installing both.

[turtlespeed 212]

On 5/19/2019 at 6:45 AM, brenthutch said:

Are you kidding me!?!?  ONE turtle gets a plastic straw stuck in its nose and half of the country goes batshit crazy and starts banning plastic straws.  It is politics and fear that drive the whole AGW debate.

”OMG! We are running out of oil while we are destroying the planet!  We have to do something!  Think about the cute fuzzy polar bears”

HEY!!

It thought it was a goose.

[billvon 2,396]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Bill, you seem to have two different positions that are at odds.

Position #1  Renewables are ready to go!  You provide several examples to support that notion and have even quarreled with me on this very thread when I suggested otherwise.

Position #2 Renewables are NOT ready for prime time and we urgently need to develop them before the cheep oil runs out.  To quote you; "Think about how much it will suck when we run out without alternatives ready to go."

You mentioned cognitive dissonance, I can not think of a better example. 

Renewables are being used RIGHT NOW.  They power my house and my car.  They are powering entire towns.  They could power yours.  They are clearly ready for all that because they are being used for that.  They are growing like crazy because in many cases they are cheaper than fossil fuels.

To think that they can replace ALL fossil fuels right now is absurd.   Not because they don't work (they do) but because of the scale at which we use fossil fuels.  It would take decades to build enough storage batteries, for example, to replace all the gas cars on the road.  And as the penetration of DR's increase, the old model of the centralized utility has to change.  We need new controls, new ways to transmit and monetize energy, and new structures to unite independent systems operators.

As an example, consider the Internet.  The first Internet network became operational in 1973 when Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn wrote the protocol and did a demonstration.  At that point the basics were ready.  In 1983, all the existing Arpanet/Bitnet nodes switched to TCP/IP.  At that point the network was ready.  In 1995 control was transferred from the NSF to private companies.

Thus by 1983 the Internet was in its modern form - a worldwide flexible network that used TCP/IP for routing and with all the hooks needed to run anything that a browser could get to.  It took hundreds of millions in government money to get there. It worked.  It was ready to go.  It was NOT ready to replace newspapers and stores - because Netscape, Firefox, Amazon, and the High Performance Computing and Communications Act had not occurred yet.  There was a lot of work to be done USING the existing, working Internet to turn it into the thing you are using right now.  And a lot of work to be done expanding it to reach more people.

So there is a lot of work to do.  We have to get it done.  The tools and materials are ready - what's missing is the work to assemble them all.

Is that understandable?

[DJL 232]

10 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

HEY!!

It thought it was a goose.

Yeah, pretty sure it was at least two turtles and a goose.  At least.  That's totally what's making people get rid of extraneous plastics like straws and bags.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

Yeah, pretty sure it was at least two turtles and a goose.  At least.  That's totally what's making people get rid of extraneous plastics like straws and bags.

Catalyst for insanity.

[normiss 622]

Whole Foods straw ban:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/business/whole-foods-plastic-straws/index.html

Other than milkshakes, I've never understood nor cared for straws.

New Tiki bar in town has them in a lot of their cocktails, but they're paper straws.

Maybe we'll see fewer plastic causing sea life to die.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Given that it's been decades of accumulation, it's going to take a long time for it to go away.

Even if we stopped using any plastic at all (or at least stopped throwing it away in a manner that it ends up in rivers and then the oceans) today, it would still be a long, long time before we could clean it up. 

Even if we tried.

It's a bit on the depressing side that when Notre Dame in Paris burned, there was hundreds of millions of dollars donated within a few days.

Half that money would go a long way towards cleaning up the plastic in the oceans. 

[turtlespeed 212]

14 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Given that it's been decades of accumulation, it's going to take a long time for it to go away.

Even if we stopped using any plastic at all (or at least stopped throwing it away in a manner that it ends up in rivers and then the oceans) today, it would still be a long, long time before we could clean it up. 

Even if we tried.

It's a bit on the depressing side that when Notre Dame in Paris burned, there was hundreds of millions of dollars donated within a few days.

Half that money would go a long way towards cleaning up the plastic in the oceans. 

Problem solved - 

Lets create the First Environmental Church, and have everyone tithe.

[richravizza 25]

On 5/20/2019 at 6:02 AM, DJL said:

 

What is your deal with trying to making everything about Vermont?  They DO use both solar hydronic heating and PVs, as in rooftop solar collectors.  I HAVE spent many winters in Vermont in the engineering and construction field on projects installing both.

The  topic of this thread was Mark Mills Logic and the GND,Vermont was mentioned.I just stayed with it, you lived there.Thought it would help you think more clearly about the winter weather.The cloud cover and viability of living without the benifits of fossile fuels which would include wood.

I grew up in CT, I know what winters are like too. When you dont see the sun for a week.3 Ft. of snow and ice.You live on a solar panel, without a fire.Aint gonna happen.

 

On 5/20/2019 at 5:48 AM, DJL said:

Meaning that his message was entirely anti everything but nuke.  As I said above, I'm happy to hitch a wagon to him because I agree that we need to revitalize the nuke industry in order to counter use of fossil fuels.  Nuke energy is a good fit in many places where renewables won't work but this guy (as a lobbyist for the nuke industry) won't admit that there are also places where renewables will work better than or work with nuke energy.

I glad you would hitched up.It's great when we actually agree.His message was if you really care about CO2 than Nukes are the logical answer.I would agree with all your statements.

Except,'where renewables will work better than" anyhow lets stay, where we agree.

The environmental movement is not your dads' movemnt They are the ones that oppose to everything but renewable.Hydro and nuke, is basically carbon free but they oppose it.

Look where this conversation went, Completely carbon free.

I just picked up a $20 tank of propane,I'll cook with it all summer long.Grilling is fun and all, but my families life doesnt depend on it. Unfortunately thats not the case for billions around the world.Human Life is dependent on Inexpensive energy to survive and hopefully thrive.

[richravizza 25]

On 5/20/2019 at 6:38 AM, billvon said:

Renewables are being used RIGHT NOW.  They power my house and my car.  They are powering entire towns.  the network was ready.    The tools and materials are ready - what's missing is the work to assemble them all.

Is that understandable?

Why do you insist on thinking America is Sunny SoCal?

Your the solar guy, how much power does solar produce when its cloudy?

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by richravizza
remove vid is The GlobalTemp accurate

[brenthutch 383]

On 5/20/2019 at 9:38 AM, billvon said:

Renewables are being used RIGHT NOW.  They power my house and my car.  They are powering entire towns.  They could power yours.  They are clearly ready for all that because they are being used for that.  They are growing like crazy because in many cases they are cheaper than fossil fuels.

 

I’m not sure you are aware of this, but State College PA, is in Pennsylvania.  There is no possible scenario where windmills and sunshine could power our town on a cold windless February after an ice storm.  AND if they are so cheap why are they so expensive?  If, in fact renewables were economically viable the private sector, not the government, would be pouring money into them.

[wmw999 2,121]

Just to interject, wood is not a fossil fuel. It has its issues, but it’s not a fossil fuel. 

Wendy P. 

[DJL 232]

7 hours ago, richravizza said:

The environmental movement is not your dads' movemnt They are the ones that oppose to everything but renewable.Hydro and nuke, is basically carbon free but they oppose it.

Definitely.  It was interesting seeing the difference between the 60's protesters and the modern protesters on the VT Yankee reactor.  The old guys (not just age as there were older 'new thinkers') were purely anti-nuke everything, can't hug with nuclear arms, kind of people and the new ones are cognizant that there needs to be a mix.  Right now I think VT is going for about 15% homes being powered by rooftop solar, there's a lot of biomass growth which has it's own issues, huge growth in wind but the state puts a very high value on it's trademark mountain tops.  VT and NH and NY should think about another nuke plant somewhere in their neighborhood.  The common denominator is that it's not easy but we have to try way fuckin' harder and the state has made huge gained with a very contentious set of people while everyone else in the country flounders.

[DJL 232]

7 hours ago, richravizza said:

Why do you insist on thinking America is Sunny SoCal?

Your the solar guy, how much power does solar produce when its cloudy?

 

In the large scale that's why you don't go 100% solar.

[billvon 2,396]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

I’m not sure you are aware of this, but State College PA, is in Pennsylvania.  There is no possible scenario where windmills and sunshine could power our town on a cold windless February after an ice storm.  

Agreed.  During such times you'd rely on battery storage or natural gas as a backup.

Quote

AND if they are so cheap why are they so expensive?  If, in fact renewables were economically viable the private sector, not the government, would be pouring money into them.

The private sector is pouring money into them.  California just hit a million solar roofs.  That's an average size of 4kW, so an average cost of $8,000 ($2/watt average install cost.) That's AFTER subsidies - that's what the owner has to pay.  So in just one state that's a spend of $8 billion for solar from property owners alone, which counts for "pouring money" into solar no matter how you look at it..

[billvon 2,396]

9 hours ago, richravizza said:

Why do you insist on thinking America is Sunny SoCal?

Your the solar guy, how much power does solar produce when its cloudy?

Between 50% and 5% of its STC rating. (And contrary to popular belief, "sunny Socal" is sometimes cloudy, too.)

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Between 50% and 5% of its STC rating. (And contrary to popular belief, "sunny Socal" is sometimes cloudy, too.)

Like Seattle is sometimes cloudy?

[CygnusX-1 42]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

 If, in fact renewables were economically viable the private sector, not the government, would be pouring money into them.

I know this has been mentioned before, but I'll beat that dead horse again - just to make sure it is still dead. But if fossil fuels are so economically viable why do states and the federal government subsidize them to the tune of $20.5 billion annually (as reported by OCI)? 

I know this is a rhetorical question. We all know the answer to that - lobbyists/ bribes/ corruption. We should first eliminate the subsidy to oil/gas/coal first. Then maybe in 30-40 years we can eliminate it for renewables.