Green new deal equals magical thinking

[SkyDekker 1,122]

10 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/09/frances-nuclear-clean-energy-is-over-three-times-faster-and-cheaper-than-germanys-solar-and-wind.html

Ah an article by an author with one of his main accolades that he is frequently mentioned by a marketing guru. Solid stuff.

It also doesn't mention how during cold periods France is bailed out by Germany since France's system can't deal with the max load.

It also compares 1980's building standards and standards to today's.

It also doesn't highlight how France's distribution and generating company is in massive debt, partly due to hiding costs.

That is what you are basing "case closed" closed on? Looks like a "mission completed" banner to me.

[gowlerk 1,911]

2 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Choices have consequences.

Exactly! Now maybe you can use that wisdom to understand why the world is moving away from fossil fuels. Choices, wise choices. Leaving the deadenders in the past and moving on.

[DJL 232]

14 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Choices have consequences.

Yes they do.  Their nuke power is cheap because it's from already paid off reactors mostly built to 50 year old standards. They built a bunch of reactors after the oil crisis in the 70's and that era of reactor will need to be replaced with modern types built with updated safety measures that they expect will raise the cost of production.  They intend to decommission them in areas in which seismic activity or flooding can pose dangers and go to only 50% nuke in the next 20 years.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Exactly! Now maybe you can use that wisdom to understand why the world is moving away from fossil fuels. Choices, wise choices. Leaving the deadenders in the past and moving on.

Why are you such a denier?

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/03/26/energy-consumption-increased-at-a-record-rate-in-2018

the reality is that we have never used more fossil fuel.  Renewables are just not keeping pace with a growing global economy.

[gowlerk 1,911]

7 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Why are you such a denier?

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/03/26/energy-consumption-increased-at-a-record-rate-in-2018

the reality is that we have never used more fossil fuel.  Renewables are just not keeping pace with a growing global economy.

Great story. And it clearly shows that we are only at the beginning of the transformation of our energy economy. Thanks.

[DJL 232]

52 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Why are you such a denier?

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/03/26/energy-consumption-increased-at-a-record-rate-in-2018

the reality is that we have never used more fossil fuel.  Renewables are just not keeping pace with a growing global economy.

Yup.  All the more reason to decommission Fossil Fuel Power Plants and move to EV's sooner rather than later as a lot of that consumption is through automobiles.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

Yup.  All the more reason to decommission Fossil Fuel Power Plants and move to EV's sooner rather than later as a lot of that consumption is through automobiles.

Yep, I’m just waiting for Tesla’s sales to skyrocket once subsidies end next year.  With regard to fossil fuel plants.....new ones are being built faster than older ones are being decommissioned. 

https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants

Edited May 16, 2019 by brenthutch

[billvon 2,396]

4 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

 With regard to fossil fuel plants.....new ones are being built faster than older ones are being decommissioned.  

And new solar+wind are being built even faster than fossil fuel plants.  Meanwhile coal is dying, and the only new fossil fuel plants being built are natural gas plants, which are considerably cleaner.  Good news for everyone.

[brenthutch 383]

Only in the West, globally coal is still king.  Don’t get me wrong, I prefer NG to coal any day, but the developing world prefers coal

Edited May 16, 2019 by brenthutch

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Yeah, those places don't have pesky 'environmental' rules. Or 'worker safety' rules (for both the miners and the power plant workers).

Coal is cheap & easy power. The downsides, like mercury contamination downwind from the plants, take years to appear. Black Lung in the coal miners is the same. Of course, the miners have to survive long enough to develop black lung. Many won't live that long. Mining is dangerous. 

[billvon 2,396]

30 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Only in the West, globally coal is still king.

Yep.  The US tends to lead the way.  (At least for now.)

[brenthutch 383]

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yep.  The US tends to lead the way.  (At least for now.)

Yes I agree, we are now the largest oil and gas producer in the world.  USA! USA! USA!

[turtlespeed 212]

18 hours ago, billvon said:

 . . . and right wing talking heads spending entire radio shows attacking her ideas.  They'd just ignore her.

That same logic would have you ignoring a lot of people here.

[richravizza 25]

5 hours ago, DJL said:

You're questioning why the plant was shut down.  The answer is that it was an old piece of shit from a 1960's design, had been scheduled for decommissioning, the state blocked a continuance of its license and it was already losing money.  It was necessary for power production BUT rather than fight the case Entergy and the State decided to draw energy from NY and Canada for the grid.

So my statement is that you know nothing about VT Yankee and your accusation that the Bernie Bros chose dirty energy over nuke falls flats.  It was a needed change even if for a short term loss.  VT as of 2017 ranks #2 for renewable energy paired with a 50% reduction in use of oil and natural gas.

 

5 hours ago, DJL said:

You're questioning why the plant was shut down.  The answer is that it was an old piece of shit from a 1960's design, had been scheduled for decommissioning, the state blocked a continuance of its license and it was already losing money.  It was necessary for power production BUT rather than fight the case Entergy and the State decided to draw energy from NY and Canada for the grid.

So my statement is that you know nothing about VT Yankee and your accusation that the Bernie Bros chose dirty energy over nuke falls flats.  It was a needed change even if for a short term loss.  VT as of 2017 ranks #2 for renewable energy paired with a 50% reduction in use of oil and natural gas.

Instead of viewing Ted talks as mental masturbation.I try and view them as mental gymnastics.Very intelligent people with new exciting and imaginative ideas,forward thinkers, if you will.With so much of our time equity entwined in this debate,well hell,you could have finish it in the time it took for me to peck away at this Keyboard.

Actually, I wasn't questioning the why.I question the Validity of shutting down the reactor in the context of GND. No mention of nukes and the same "environmentalist" will never allow  more hydro-power.So like Germany buying coal power from Lithuania, VT can claim #2 in renewables by drawing power from other States and countries.All in a State the size of well,Vermont  ranked #49.

Fear,rules the day. Throw a hundred protesters at it and just disregard  the forty plus years of safe, reliable, near Carbon free production.

"More people have died falling off roves installing solar panels,than all the nuclear accidents in the entire history of of nuclear power in the U.S."

The highest recorded temperature was 105 °F (41 °C), at Vernon, on July 4, 1911. The lowest recorded temperature was −50 °F (−46 °C), at Bloomfield, on December 30, 1933; this is the lowest temperature recorded in New England alongside Big Black River, also recorded a verified −50 °F (−46 °C) in 2009. The Inconvenient truth.

 

 

 

[billvon 2,396]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

That same logic would have you ignoring a lot of people here.

?? Do you think that discussion boards are just like the US Congress and the media?  People come here to discuss things (sometimes.)

[turtlespeed 212]

14 minutes ago, billvon said:

?? Do you think that discussion boards are just like the US Congress and the media?  People come here to discuss things (sometimes.)

Just like - No.

A lot of similarities - yes.

[richravizza 25]

9 hours ago, billvon said:

Yep.  Think about how much it will suck when we run out without alternatives ready to go.

So we're back to the "Peak Oil Theory " oh tease me 

8 hours ago, billvon said:

And I'll keep my free solar.  We'll see who spends more in the long run.

 I thought we all agreed, there is no free lunch?

Try your majical feat in Vermont.You assume eveyone lives in a semi arid Desert of Sunny SoCal.That is definatly  not representive.

I would bet, by  December you would be burning the forrest to stay alive.

5 hours ago, billvon said:

And new solar+wind are being built even faster than fossil fuel plants.  Meanwhile coal is dying, and the only new fossil fuel plants being built are natural gas plants, which are considerably cleaner.  Good news for everyone.

Nice we Agree, I dont think anyone on this tread  is Pro coal.

Oh I feel like a hug lol.

Remember the Alarmist not long ago.   Frack Land!!!  The water air and Land would all be polluted.Lies lies and more lies.

We agreed here too, but I find it interesting.While you would rather frack nat gas, than cut off a mountain top for coal, cool.

But you dont have a problem with that practice when it comes to certian elements.

Both you and 

4 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Yeah, those places don't have pesky 'environmental' rules. Or 'worker safety' rules (for both the miners and the power plant workers).

Coal is cheap & easy power. The downsides, like mercury contamination downwind from the plants, take years to appear. Black Lung in the coal miners is the same. Of course, the miners have to survive long enough to develop black lung. Many won't live that long. Mining is dangerous. 

 but I hope you see the Risk and Damage that's already occured,in creating a third world, trace element boon,a fossil fueled industry and supply chain that's out of our control. 
 

[richravizza 25]

The Green New Deal

If you could buy your salvation, 

for your prosterity

for the sake of humanity

For the miracal that is our natural world, what would you pay?

 

Drum roll please...          

Well for  just     $93 Trillion Dollars  Salvation can be had.

that right folks,

may sound a bit steep but think of what you'll get!!!

 just make 15  easy annual payments of  EVERYTHING.

and If you can't pay it, no prob, we'll have your prodigy co-sign.

They're worth it,and so are You.

I'm with Her. no shit 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by richravizza
AOC/her

[Stumpy 256]

4 hours ago, richravizza said:

The Green New Deal

If you could buy your salvation, 

for your prosterity

for the sake of humanity

For the miracal that is our natural world, what would you pay?

 

Drum roll please...          

Well for  just     $93 Trillion Dollars  Salvation can be had.

that right folks,

may sound a bit steep but think of what you'll get!!!

 just make 15  easy annual payments of  EVERYTHING.

and If you can't pay it, no prob, we'll have your prodigy co-sign.

They're worth it,and so are You.

I'm with Her. no shit 

 

Want to try again, in coherent sentences this time?

[DJL 232]

12 hours ago, richravizza said:

Actually, I wasn't questioning the why.I question the Validity of shutting down the reactor in the context of GND. No mention of nukes and the same "environmentalist" will never allow  more hydro-power.So like Germany buying coal power from Lithuania, VT can claim #2 in renewables by drawing power from other States and countries.All in a State the size of well,Vermont  ranked #49.

Fear,rules the day. Throw a hundred protesters at it and just disregard  the forty plus years of safe, reliable, near Carbon free production.

VT isn't claiming #2, UCS is and yes, they know where they get their power from.  Again, VT Yankee was shut down because it was LITERALLY FALLING APART and was LOSING MONEY.

http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2017/04/Clean-Energy-Momentum-report.pdf

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/entergy-to-close-decommission-vermont-yankee-221304391.html

Edit:  Anyway, I listened to the TED talk and I'm familiar with the speaker.  He's a lobbyist for the nuke industry and his TED talk was just more blah blah blah blah.

Edit:  Also, I know  people who worked on getting it shut down and while there are the absolute "anti-nuke" types in there, there are also many who are pro nuke and understand its use in reducing emissions.  Many of us hoped for an upgrade to a modern reactor but financially it simply wasn't in the cards for Entergy.

Edited May 17, 2019 by DJL

[billvon 2,396]

12 hours ago, richravizza said:

So we're back to the "Peak Oil Theory " oh tease me 

Cheap oil (of the sort you can use to fuel your car) will run out.  Fact.  The only question is when.

Quote

 I thought we all agreed, there is no free lunch?

Exactly.  The panels cost $$.  In Vermont they would cost more $$ for the same energy.

Quote

We agreed here too, but I find it interesting.While you would rather frack nat gas, than cut off a mountain top for coal, cool.

Yep.  I'd rather do neither, but given the choice, fracking is better than mountaintop removal.

Quote

But you dont have a problem with that practice when it comes to certian elements.

No, I have a problem with mining practices that harm the environment and lead to bad economic consequences for workers.  And in that video that was posted (you did watch it, right?) the solution was stated - to source the materials from places with better environmental practices.  Fortunately we need very, very small amounts of those materials so the impact is much smaller.

In other words, it's better to mine for ten pounds of cobalt than 200 tons of coal, even if both use poor mining practices.

Quote

But I hope you see the Risk and Damage that's already occured,in creating a third world, trace element boon,a fossil fueled industry and supply chain that's out of our control. 

Yep.  There are problems.  Still way, way better than the damage done by coal mining and fracking.

[richravizza 25]

5 hours ago, DJL said:

VT isn't claiming #2, UCS is and yes, they know where they get their power from.  Again, VT Yankee was shut down because it was LITERALLY FALLING APART and was LOSING MONEY.

http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2017/04/Clean-Energy-Momentum-report.pdf

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/entergy-to-close-decommission-vermont-yankee-221304391.html

Edit:  Anyway, I listened to the TED talk and I'm familiar with the speaker.  He's a lobbyist for the nuke industry and his TED talk was just more blah blah blah blah.

Edit:  Also, I know  people who worked on getting it shut down and while there are the absolute "anti-nuke" types in there, there are also many who are pro nuke and understand its use in reducing emissions.  Edit:  Anyway, I listened to the TED talk and I'm familiar with the speaker.  He's a lobbyist for the nuke industry and his TED talk was just more blah blah blah blah.

Blah,Blah. thanks. I've been Inlighted.Thanks.

,Edit:  Anyway, I listened to the TED talk and I'm familiar with the speaker.  He's a lobbyist for the nuke industry and his TED talk was just more blah blah blah blah.

After 40 years of service it was falling apart.It was expensive.

No shit.

Compared to what? The apocalypse, or the 93T price tag for a pipe dream that is the GND?

He's a lobbyist for the nuke industry and his TED talk was just more blah blah blah blah.

This seem to be a recurring theme,

if  dont like the message, dismiss the messenger as a morally bankrupt, contenpable money hungry Lobbyist.

Or just attack the messengers motive, intellect and their education.So liberal and progressive.

   

 

[richravizza 25]

9 hours ago, Stumpy said:

Want to try again, in coherent sentences this time?

My Apolgies to those offended.

"The Green New Deal"

If you could buy your salvation, for your prosterity,for the sake of humanity,and for the miracal that is our natural world, what would you pay?

Drum roll please...          

Well for  just     $93 Trillion Dollars  Salvation can be had.

That right folks!

May sound a bit steep, but think of what you'll get!!!

 For just  15  easy annual payments of EVERYTHING.

 If you can't pay it, no prob, we'll have your prodigy co-sign.They're worth it,and so are You.

I'm with Her. No shit.

 

The cost of the GND is estimated at "93 Trillion" divide it by  total federal revenue at about 6.5T.

[Stumpy 256]

6 minutes ago, richravizza said:

My Apolgies to those offended.

"The Green New Deal"

If you could buy your salvation, for your prosterity,for the sake of humanity,and for the miracal that is our natural world, what would you pay?

Drum roll please...          

Well for  just     $93 Trillion Dollars  Salvation can be had.

That right folks!

May sound a bit steep, but think of what you'll get!!!

 For just  15  easy annual payments of EVERYTHING.

 If you can't pay it, no prob, we'll have your prodigy co-sign.They're worth it,and so are You.

I'm with Her. No shit.

 

The cost of the GND is estimated at "93 Trillion" divide it by  total federal revenue at about 6.5T.

No you still failed.

But I get the gist. You are parroting numbers from a right wing think tank.

Bless.

[turtlespeed 212]

13 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

No you still failed.

But I get the gist. You are parroting numbers from a right wing think tank.

Bless.

this is what I have read :

The American Action Forum estimates that, between 2020 and 2029, the energy and environmental components of the Green New Deal would cost $8.3 trillion to $12.3 trillion, or $52,000 to $72,000 per household.Feb 26, 2019