Green new deal equals magical thinking

[Phil1111 910]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Joe, the magical technological innovation that saved us (the West) from the OPEC cartel was hydraulic fracturing, Russian fossil fuel and oil sands exploitation.  The west never sobered up we just switched our drink of preference from Arak, to bourbon, vodka and Crown Royal.

"The growth phase of the shale boom is "screeching to a halt," says Raoul LeBlanc, vice president for energy at IHS Markit. "We expect zero growth next year, and if the coronavirus continues, we could have negative growth this year." ...

Another reason is all about cash. Shale companies simply haven't made much money from the fracking revolution.

"This is one of the most capital-intensive businesses in the world," LeBlanc said. "Investors that were willing to fund this massive growth are starting to focus on profitability and getting money back," LeBlanc said. That means spending less on drilling new wells...."In the long run, demand for oil is uncertain, at best. Fear is starting to decapitalize the sector, compounding the lousy returns and making it easy for people to say 'I'm not going to invest here,' " LeBlanc said.

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Wouldn't it be interesting to quantify the third world country kids lives lost and the environmental damage done mining the materials for batteries, managing the batteries and ultimately the disassembly/ disposal/reuse of them. Also wonder what percentage of these batteries are recharged from coal fired power plants. There is no free lunch.

And about that CO2 thing. Wonder how many cold country folks are working from home and not driving their autos to work. I'm sure that the decrease in tail pipe emissions is much much less than the emissions from their fireplaces as they sit at home and burn all that wood.

'In the first comprehensive analysis of its kind, Reveal found that, on average, a worker dies about every six weeks from an accident in the Bakken, with at least 74 deaths in the oil fields since 2006."...

Air pollution from fracking killed an estimated 20 people in Pennsylvania from 2010-2017: Study

Study: Air pollution causes 200,000 early deaths each year in the U.S.

New MIT study finds vehicle emissions are the biggest contributor to these premature deaths.

Shale Boom Growth 'Screeching To A Halt'

[JoeWeber 2,298]

10 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Joe, the magical technological innovation that saved us (the West) from the OPEC cartel was hydraulic fracturing, Russian fossil fuel and oil sands exploitation.  The west never sobered up we just switched our drink of preference from Arak, to bourbon, vodka and Crown Royal.

The economy destroying pandemic followed the marvel of hydraulic fracturing, right? And no, I don't recommend another as a way of further reducing CO2 emissions. However like fracking once didn't exist so it is with the next thing. Visionaries are willing to gamble on unknowns, stationaries just look at what is easy and now and wonder why anyone would risk change.

[billeisele 122]

8 hours ago, billvon said:

Wood is CO2 neutral.  It grows back.

In theory that is true. Was thinking more about the particulate emissions from the fireplace. 

Throughout environmental law there are these disparities. One can throw away florescent tubes at home but not at work because there they are classified as hazardous waste. Same with paint, aerosol cans and many other common household items.

One can operate a car, fireplace and burn debris all creating particulate emissions but industry must filter, scrub and do all other kinds of things to manage emissions. 

I get it. A homeowner is a minor problem whereas a factory is a single, potentially, big problem. But in the end it all matters. It would be interesting to quantify the total emissions from a group of vehicles that emit the same volume as a modern coal fired power plant to see how they compare.

[brenthutch 383]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

The economy destroying pandemic followed the marvel of hydraulic fracturing, right? And no, I don't recommend another as a way of further reducing CO2 emissions. However like fracking once didn't exist so it is with the next thing. Visionaries are willing to gamble on unknowns, stationaries just look at what is easy and now and wonder why anyone would risk change.

It’s fine for visionaries to gamble with their own assets, it’s not ok for them to gamble with the assets of others.  We are about to see another wave of “green” boondoggles just like we did during the Obama administration.  Here is a short list of “green energy” companies and the amount of taxpayer money lost.

1. Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
2. SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
3. Solyndra ($535 million)*
4. Beacon Power ($43 million)*
5. Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
6. SunPower ($1.2 billion)
7. First Solar ($1.46 billion)
8. Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
9. EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
10. Amonix ($5.9 million)
11. Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
12. Abound Solar ($400 million)*
13. A123 Systems ($279 million)*
14. Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
15. Johnson Controls ($299 million)
16. Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
17. ECOtality ($126.2 million)
18. Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
19. Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
20. Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
21. Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
22. Range Fuels ($80 million)*
23. Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
24. Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
25. Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
26. GreenVolts ($500,000)
27. Vestas ($50 million)
28. LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
29. Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
30. Navistar ($39 million)
31. Satcon ($3 million)*
32. Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
33. Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

* denotes bankruptcy as of 2012, many more have gone tits up since.

The case of Fisker is particularly interesting...

https://investigativeresearchcenter.org/hunter-biden-listed-as-fisker-creditor-raising-questions-about-green-energy-boondoggle/

”Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”

 

[JoeWeber 2,298]

22 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

It’s fine for visionaries to gamble with their own assets, it’s not ok for them to gamble with the assets of others.  We are about to see another wave of “green” boondoggles just like we did during the Obama administration.  Here is a short list of “green energy” companies and the amount of taxpayer money lost.

1. Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
2. SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
3. Solyndra ($535 million)*
4. Beacon Power ($43 million)*
5. Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
6. SunPower ($1.2 billion)
7. First Solar ($1.46 billion)
8. Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
9. EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
10. Amonix ($5.9 million)
11. Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
12. Abound Solar ($400 million)*
13. A123 Systems ($279 million)*
14. Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
15. Johnson Controls ($299 million)
16. Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
17. ECOtality ($126.2 million)
18. Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
19. Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
20. Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
21. Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
22. Range Fuels ($80 million)*
23. Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
24. Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
25. Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
26. GreenVolts ($500,000)
27. Vestas ($50 million)
28. LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
29. Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
30. Navistar ($39 million)
31. Satcon ($3 million)*
32. Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
33. Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

* denotes bankruptcy as of 2012, many more have gone tits up since.

The case of Fisker is particularly interesting...

https://investigativeresearchcenter.org/hunter-biden-listed-as-fisker-creditor-raising-questions-about-green-energy-boondoggle/

”Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”

 

Whiting, Chesapeake Energy Corp., Diamond Offshore Drilling Inc. etc.. Apparently not only Solar companies go tits up.

[brenthutch 383]

29 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Whiting, Chesapeake Energy Corp., Diamond Offshore Drilling Inc. etc.. Apparently not only Solar companies go tits up.

You are missing a column, the one with government grants and loan guarantees.

[Phil1111 910]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

It’s fine for visionaries to gamble with their own assets, it’s not ok for them to gamble with the assets of others.  We are about to see another wave of “green” boondoggles just like we did during the Obama administration.  Here is a short list of “green energy” companies and the amount of taxpayer money lost....

https://investigativeresearchcenter.org/hunter-biden-listed-as-fisker-creditor-raising-questions-about-green-energy-boondoggle/

”Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”

 

Debunked lies, deliberate misinformation and conservative propaganda. The quoted material is from the The Heritage Foundation. "The Heritage Foundation has been described as a major influence on the presidential transition of Donald Trump and the Trump administration.^[43][44][45] The foundation had a powerful say in the staffing of the administration...At least 66 foundation employees and alumni were given positions in the administration

The Heritage Foundation rejects the scientific consensus on climate change.^[70][71] The Heritage Foundation is one of many climate change denial organizations that have been funded by ExxonMobil.^[70][72] The Heritage Foundation strongly criticized the Kyoto Agreement

[JoeWeber 2,298]

22 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

You are missing a column, the one with government grants and loan guarantees.

Nope. I left out any subsidy issues to suck you in. Thank you. I know you know that Oil Industry Companies benefit from many Government programs such as Master Limited Partnerships, Intangible Drilling Costs, Royalty Payment Reductions on Federal Lands,  the Depletion Allowance, the Domestic Manufacturing Deduction and the Foreign Tax Credit and so on. Are you thinking those should never have been gifted to the industry by the government?

[brenthutch 383]

52 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Debunked lies, deliberate misinformation and conservative propaganda. 

Are you saying that Solyndra didn’t go bankrupt, receive $500 million in loan guarantees or both.  What part that has been debunked?

[brenthutch 383]

52 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Nope. I left out any subsidy issues to suck you in. Thank you. I know you know that Oil Industry Companies benefit from many Government programs such as Master Limited Partnerships, Intangible Drilling Costs, Royalty Payment Reductions on Federal Lands,  the Depletion Allowance, the Domestic Manufacturing Deduction and the Foreign Tax Credit and so on. Are you thinking those should never have been gifted to the industry by the government?

Most of those are available to green enterprises as well and fall under standard accounting principles. (Ivanpah didn’t even pay for the land it uses)

[JoeWeber 2,298]

3 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Most of those are available to green enterprises as well and fall under standard accounting principles. (Ivanpah didn’t even pay for the land it uses)

I suppose you could argue that any raw materials mined in the US would benefit from intangible drilling costs and the depletion allowance if you just had to go granular and silly. But I'm not sure you'll find the same sort of underground mining to product in your gas tank vertical integration in solar panel or wind mill manufacturing that you find in the oil industry. Of course MLP's were created to benefit, and were limited, to real estate and natural resource companies so I'm not sure those are an available structure to green industries. No matter, like green energy the government found ways to subsidize hydrocarbon energy. That's a fact.

[brenthutch 383]

14 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I suppose you could argue that any raw materials mined in the US would benefit from intangible drilling costs and the depletion allowance if you just had to go granular and silly. But I'm not sure you'll find the same sort of underground mining to product in your gas tank vertical integration in solar panel or wind mill manufacturing that you find in the oil industry. Of course MLP's were created to benefit, and were limited, to real estate and natural resource companies so I'm not sure those are an available structure to green industries. No matter, like green energy the government found ways to subsidize hydrocarbon energy. That's a fact.

That is why I said most. 
They both get subsidized and in return contribute to their political benefactors, the difference is we get something for our money with fossil fuels.

Edited January 27, 2021 by brenthutch

[Phil1111 910]

58 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Are you saying that Solyndra didn’t go bankrupt, receive $500 million in loan guarantees or both.  What part that has been debunked?

Chinese dumping of solar panels which they eventually admitted to and paid compensation. Even you know that.

25 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

That is why I said most. 
They both get subsidized and in return contribute to their political benefactors, the difference is we get something for our money with fossil fuels.

Tell that to investors in the fracking industry who have a net negative return since the birth of the technology. Which you not only know, but insist upon touting.

[billvon 2,396]

3 hours ago, billeisele said:

Throughout environmental law there are these disparities. One can throw away florescent tubes at home but not at work because there they are classified as hazardous waste. Same with paint, aerosol cans and many other common household items.

One can operate a car, fireplace and burn debris all creating particulate emissions but industry must filter, scrub and do all other kinds of things to manage emissions. 

I get it. A homeowner is a minor problem whereas a factory is a single, potentially, big problem. But in the end it all matters. It would be interesting to quantify the total emissions from a group of vehicles that emit the same volume as a modern coal fired power plant to see how they compare.

Yes, it all matters - but it all doesn't have to end.  We don't have to get CO2 emissions to zero.  We just have to get them down by 70-80%.  At that point, the existing mechanisms (mainly phytoplankton) can handle the increased emissions, and CO2 levels stop rising.

As an example, air travel contributes 10-15% of our total CO2 emissions.  If we eliminated every source OTHER than air travel, we could keep air travel with no modifications.

[JoeWeber 2,298]

58 minutes ago, billvon said:

As an example, air travel contributes 10-15% of our total CO2 emissions.  If we eliminated every source OTHER than air travel, we could keep air travel with no modifications.

Yes. And I'd point out that the majority of that is from people traveling coach. 

[Phil1111 910]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

...As an example, air travel contributes 10-15% of our total CO2 emissions.  If we eliminated every source OTHER than air travel, we could keep air travel with no modifications.

Its a good thing skydivers are so green conscious, Brent excluded of course. We all agree to make our air travel one way.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

Chinese dumping of solar panels which they eventually admitted to and paid compensation. Even you know that.

Tell that to investors in the fracking industry who have a net negative return since the birth of the technology. Which you not only know, but insist upon touting.

What does that have to do with debunked Heritage Foundation propaganda?  Did those companies go bankrupt or not?  Did those companies receive government grants and loan guarantees or not?
 

If a fracking enterprise looses money the investors take the hit, when green energy companies loose money the taxpayer takes the hit, big difference.

[Phil1111 910]

26 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

What does that have to do with debunked Heritage Foundation propaganda?  Did those companies go bankrupt or not?  Did those companies receive government grants and loan guarantees or not?

As ususal

26 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

If a fracking enterprise looses money the investors take the hit, when green energy companies loose money the taxpayer takes the hit, big difference.

Wrong as you've stated before and know is a lie. "More than 3.2 million abandoned oil and gas wells together emitted 281 kilotons of methane in 2018" or 1% of total US greenhouse emissions.

Cleanup of abandoned oil and gas wells could cost Texans $117 billion.

Or more than $4000 for every Texan to clean up that liability. So investors make nothing and taxpayers get hit for every single person including children $4k.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

As usual 

I’ll take that as a yes.  
BTW Biden just signed an executive order eliminating oil and gas subsidies.  If you are right (that oil and gas are propped up w government money)we should see the swift collapse of them.  If I am right we will se an increase in utility bills and gas prices.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

15 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

If you are right (that oil and gas are propped up w government money)we should see the swift collapse of them.

Strawman as usual.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Brent,

Progress:  Tesla . . . rides sales jump to 1st annual profit

Tesla fights pandemic, rides sales jump to 1st annual profit (apnews.com)

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Does this mean that their stocks will soon crash?

[JoeWeber 2,298]

22 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Brent,

Progress:  Tesla . . . rides sales jump to 1st annual profit

Tesla fights pandemic, rides sales jump to 1st annual profit (apnews.com)

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Does this mean that their stocks will soon crash?

Not like their driverless cars, by God. Damn horseless carriages.

[brenthutch 383]

2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Brent,

Progress:  Tesla . . . rides sales jump to 1st annual profit

Tesla fights pandemic, rides sales jump to 1st annual profit (apnews.com)

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Does this mean that their stocks will soon crash?

How many times do I have to say I was wrong about Tesla?  Although it’s valuation is far beyond any traditional measure, it continues to rise.  With the new administration the trough will be filled again with taxpayer dollars, so the sky is the limit.

[brenthutch 383]

6 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Strawman as usual.

How so?  You guys say that government subsidies prop up fossil fuel companies. I say without those subsidies, those companies will still exist and just pass those costs on to the consumer.  I guess we will find out in the next few months.

BTW I say harsh regulations on fossil fuel producers will cost jobs.  Biden says it will create millions.  Again we will find out in the next few months. 

[wmw999 2,121]

8 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

How so?  You guys say that government subsidies prop up fossil fuel companies. I say without those subsidies, those companies will still exist and just pass those costs on to the consumer.  I guess we will find out in the next few months.

BTW I say harsh regulations on fossil fuel producers will cost jobs.  Biden says it will create millions.  Again we will find out in the next few months. 

The next few months is not a good measure. The next few years. The horse and carriage business was destroyed by the automotive industry, which didn’t make up for all the jobs for a long time  

As an industry wanes, people just keep using the old (whatever) rather than buying a shiny new one every couple of years 

Wendy P.