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rugbyfan89

opinions for a cherry jumper

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Hello brothers and sisters of the silk, 

Military static line jumper who is working through to finishing my A license and getting my jumpy boy on regularly. Looking for opinions on rigs that will be freefly friendly as that is likely the discipline I would like to get into once I finish and continue to perfect my belly flying and rw. Have been mostly looking at wings for the comfort and appearance, and vectors for the reviews and general price point. Any opinions on where to look would be greatly appreciated. Looking forward to your experience and snarky, witty humor. 

V/R

Cody K

 

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Personally, I would avoid the Wings container.   If you search through the threads you will see there have been some strange incidents with Wings that just don't seem to occur with other containers.   Resulting in jumpers towing reserve pilot chutes and manually extracting the bag out of the container.     Although people with Wings say mine worked fine when I needed it, It has occurred a number of times and is well documented.   Do I want that as something in the back of my mind every time I jump?   

As a rigger, I pack all containers but the wings is not one of my favorites to pack.    Also making an RSL an optional extra on a new container just annoys me.   This is a standard item on all other containers and feels like nickle and diming customers.

If you want a Semi-exposed reserve pilot chute design container - go with a Javelin rather than a Wings.   UPT Vector 3 is also great containers.    Both companies have excellent product support and if you are buying a new container - that will feel more comfortable than any student, rental gear you have worn previously.     

UPT containers - rock solid, well tested, excellent company and customer support.  The company is a leading innovator in skydiving equipment.  They develop the features other manufacturers eventually utilize.  

That said, I would probably get a used container as the 1st set of gear while you're still learning and downsizing.    Once you have sorted out landings and settled into a size canopy you are going to be content with for a while then consider a brand new container.

As for "freefly friendly" almost every container in production is freefly friendly these days.   Leg strap throwaways, exposed bridles and velcro on containers are just not made on new containers anymore, soft or mini D handles for reserve are almost standard as well.

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what makes it annoying to pack if you dont mind me asking... and yea I'm looking into used for a first rig... problem is all the rigs I seem to find are sized for a 180 or below main canopy and me being 30 and liking beer I dont think that's going to be my first main... (210 exit weight), looking at 210 sabre2's. So I'm keeping my options open. Appreciate the input!

Edited by rugbyfan89

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7 minutes ago, rugbyfan89 said:

what makes it annoying to pack if you dont mind me asking...

Many riggers find it hard to make the cap sit nicely on Wings compared to other similar designs. It's not impossible, but more difficult. The good news is that the larger the container the easier it is. Since you will be wanting larger canopies it shouldn't be that much of an issue.

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As was noted, any rig made in the past 10 years or so will likely be 'freefly friendly.'

 

Is where you are jumping now likely to be where you jump in the future? I know military folk tend to get moved around more than the rest of us.

What is popular at your DZ? What do the local riggers normally pack? While there are some variations among rigs, for the most part it's a 'preference' issue. 
And having a type that your rigger is familiar with and comfortable packing is a plus. 

 

Bigger rigs are out there, you just have to look harder & longer.

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39 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Many riggers find it hard to make the cap sit nicely on Wings compared to other similar designs. It's not impossible, but more difficult. The good news is that the larger the container the easier it is. Since you will be wanting larger canopies it shouldn't be that much of an issue.

 

Gowlerk detailed one of the points which is the cap tends to sit up because the pilot chute material is stuffed into the spring to minimize the potential of coil lock.   Other container designs tend to pull the material out of the spring and hence can the cap compressed down a bit for semi-exposed pilot chutes making it easier to look good, and its not really an issue if the pilot chute is covered by additional flaps such as Vector 3, Mirage, Infinity etc.

To do a good job and make wings containers look neat takes more work.   If there are lots of wings on the DZ - the riggers probably get good at seating them or they all look shitty.

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Also its an option to get a container that accommodates bigger canopies and then getting it re-harnessed to fit you.   

The container determines the canopies that can be safely packed in it and the harness is designed to accommodate the jumper.  So you may find a container that would fit the canopies but was made for a smaller person or a huge person.   If the price is right you can buy the container and send it back to the manufacturer to be re-harnessed to your dimensions.

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 2:46 PM, skytribe said:

Personally, I would avoid the Wings container.   If you search through the threads you will see there have been some strange incidents with Wings that just don't seem to occur with other containers.   Resulting in jumpers towing reserve pilot chutes and manually extracting the bag out of the container.     Although people with Wings say mine worked fine when I needed it, It has occurred a number of times and is well documented.   Do I want that as something in the back of my mind every time I jump?   

As seen Wings gets a lot of hate from people that aren't up to speed. Everything they said as a rigger is valid. The issues with the reserve pilot chute has long been fixed.

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The issues with the reserve pilot chute has long been fixed.

And how was this fixed as no service bulletin was issued on the reserve pilot chute or modifications to the containers to prevent this occurring ?  I know of other occurrences and also that Sunrise was able to reproduce the scenario in the loft.

When I contacted Sunrise after a local jumper had to manually extract the reserve freebag after looking over his shoulder and seeing a fully inflated pilot chute in tow (and it wasn't my pack job so I'm not protective and deflecting blame).     When asked should I replace with new pilot chute - ie. is it better.  They responded that both were acceptable.      I'm not sure that was the answer that the local jumper wanted to hear as the existing one obviously was not acceptable.

As this was not a first occurence of this happening on a Wings and there are others well documented on video.   My opinion was that it hasnt been fixed.   If it was, then we wouldnt see rigs out there with it still occuring.   A bulletin would have been issued, which it hasnt.

I'm not a Wings hater.   I will pack them according to the manual for jumpers that chose them.   

 

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22 minutes ago, skytribe said:

 as the existing one obviously was not acceptable.

 

Hi tribe,

I think that it comes down to who is determining if it is 'acceptable' or not.

IMO the FAA considers either one acceptable.  Possibly you or the owner do not.  I would think a discussion with the owner might make it worth his money to just buy the larger one & go on with his life; I would.

It is rather like the old Vector 1 pilot chutes with the very small cap.  I have never heard RWS/UPT issue anything that they must be replaced by the Vector II/III pilot chute with the larger cap.

Not trying to argue, just trying to bring a different persective to the conversation.

Jerry Baumchen

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3 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi tribe,

I think that it comes down to who is determining if it is 'acceptable' or not.

IMO the FAA considers either one acceptable.  Possibly you or the owner do not.  I would think a discussion with the owner might make it worth his money to just buy the larger one & go on with his life; I would.

It is rather like the old Vector 1 pilot chutes with the very small cap.  I have never heard RWS/UPT issue anything that they must be replaced by the Vector II/III pilot chute with the larger cap.

Not trying to argue, just trying to bring a different persective to the conversation.

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry - I understand that there is a liability issue here but when I spoke to them I was very particular in that the customer did not mind purchasing a new pilot chute.   They just were freaked out at the incident and didn't want it to occur again.   So the answer from them was rather on the fence when I would have preferred a definitive answer such as the new pilot chute is a definite improvement.  (That's not what I got).

As to the 'acceptable'.  I think the manufacturer and customer probably have very different definitions of acceptable after their incident.

The customer ended up getting a new pilot chute and upgrading to a Reserve boost.  (cost was not the issue).     With the MARD system, the malfunctioned main probably creates a whole lot more drag.

As to whether it is fixed or not - no bulletin means there are legacy rigs out there with the older containers that the jumpers don't even know the rig has a potential issue even with a newer version available.     As the the fix - I'm curious as to what Sunrise has done to fix the problem.

Let's just say that the Wings container, has experienced a few issues with Reserve activations.  Which is a statement of fact.   The cause and resolutions are both questionable and subject to opinion and may/may not apply to certain containers.

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Lol... I also hated packing Wings reserves, not because it's annoying, which it is, but because most of that annoyance came from feeling like the entire system was inferior. Maybe if I brought up my concerns to a manufacturer, they would be able to ease my frustrations on why it was fine, but I never did, even though I lived in Z-hills for a total of 6 months. I just continued to bash them, along with the other riggers I know, because we are sometimes fond of doing that. Still, customers who own Wings rigs are happy with them. Side note, I know the chick from the ad ->

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18 hours ago, Justincblount said:

but because most of that annoyance came from feeling like the entire system was inferior.

What did you find inferior about them? I owned a Wings EXT for ~9 years ( one of the first). It had a vastly different main/reserve packing tray. As an Anvil Brother; the main packing tray was for a 149-169 with a 249-M reserve packing tray. It served me well and was my favorite over my Reflex, Vector, Dolphin, etc. etc. 

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On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:54 AM, skytribe said:

And how was this fixed as no service bulletin was issued on the reserve pilot chute or modifications to the containers to prevent this occurring ?  I know of other occurrences and also that Sunrise was able to reproduce the scenario in the loft.

When I contacted Sunrise after a local jumper had to manually extract the reserve freebag after looking over his shoulder and seeing a fully inflated pilot chute in tow (and it wasn't my pack job so I'm not protective and deflecting blame).     When asked should I replace with new pilot chute - ie. is it better.  They responded that both were acceptable.      I'm not sure that was the answer that the local jumper wanted to hear as the existing one obviously was not acceptable.

As this was not a first occurence of this happening on a Wings and there are others well documented on video.   My opinion was that it hasnt been fixed.   If it was, then we wouldnt see rigs out there with it still occuring.   A bulletin would have been issued, which it hasnt.

I'm not a Wings hater.   I will pack them according to the manual for jumpers that chose them.   

 

The new RPC is of a different design than the previous one. There was no service bulletin because there is no requirement to change it. How long ago was the issue you had at your DZ? I have seen one video of a RPC in tow when the jumper was belly to earth and that video is 10 or so years old with a subterminal deployment on a 250sqft ish reserve.

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4 minutes ago, meat.missile said:

The new RPC is of a different design than the previous one. There was no service bulletin because there is no requirement to change it. How long ago was the issue you had at your DZ? I have seen one video of a RPC in tow when the jumper was belly to earth and that video is 10 or so years old with a subterminal deployment on a 250sqft ish reserve.

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August 2017 - Subterminal 150 ft Spectre.      As a result of the incident, the jumper in question replaced the pilot chute with a new one and installed the MARD system and opened a discussion on the incident.

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/24307-wings-reserve-pc-in-tow/

This may be back from 2012 but seems to show a similar issue

 

And the issue has been discussed.

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/24149-what's-wrong-with-wings-containers%3F/

So feel free to say its fixed a long time ago, but clearly there are rigs still out there that are not fixed, and clearly it has not been established that these parts should be replaced or even that they existed until the discussion started to happen.   I understand that the rig was tested with the original design but if later the design is determined to be insufficient should the customer not be informed so that rectifying action can take place or should we just ignore the fact and install the new part on new rigs and forget about the older ones.   

Even making it known as a potential issue would be transparent.  If the original design was good, then why the need to redesign it.   

I was talking to another jumper last year that was an S&TA at a DZ and witnessed similar issues on Wings containers and contacted Sunrise but got a poor response, it doesn't leave me with an impression of a manufacturer that is responsive to customer problems.   Which again leads me to believe that the problem still exists in the field.

The choice is down to the jumper what gear they want to jump.    As I said, I will pack them in the manner that the manufacturer approves but don't personally recommend them. 

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7 hours ago, BIGUN said:

What did you find inferior about them?

I didn't like the shape, design or material of the d-bag. I also didn't have much faith in the MARD system, the pin and cloth design. Maybe it's fine, it just made me feel weird. The closing sequence probably wouldn't bother me much on its own, just coupled with other things added to my dissatisfaction. I'm not very experienced though, so my instincts are suspect, and I'm sure there are Wings containers now with designs that differ from what I've seen.

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I like the MARD system on the Wings.   No need to tie with a bit of thread or tack something.   The design I believe is based upon something created by Eric Fradet.     However, it can be misrouted on the Wings which can cause a big problem.   When retrofitting an older wings rig with the MARD I had to contact Sunrise because their instructions although clear didn't really make it clear how to distinguish between an Older and Newer version of the Wings.   

When they responded the difference was subtle, I suggested that they should include this on the documentation to make things clearer for others as the routing is important.   The response was that is a good idea, however, the documentation has never been changed to include what I consider a piece of important information to determine which instructions are applicable.    A 5-minute job to update 2 documents to make things "Crystal Clear".

This is just another part of my experience with Sunrise customer service.

 

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On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 12:08 PM, skytribe said:

 

August 2017 - Subterminal 150 ft Spectre.      As a result of the incident, the jumper in question replaced the pilot chute with a new one and installed the MARD system and opened a discussion on the incident.

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/24307-wings-reserve-pc-in-tow/

This may be back from 2012 but seems to show a similar issue

 

And the issue has been discussed.

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/24149-what's-wrong-with-wings-containers%3F/

So feel free to say its fixed a long time ago, but clearly there are rigs still out there that are not fixed, and clearly it has not been established that these parts should be replaced or even that they existed until the discussion started to happen.   I understand that the rig was tested with the original design but if later the design is determined to be insufficient should the customer not be informed so that rectifying action can take place or should we just ignore the fact and install the new part on new rigs and forget about the older ones.   

Even making it known as a potential issue would be transparent.  If the original design was good, then why the need to redesign it.   

I was talking to another jumper last year that was an S&TA at a DZ and witnessed similar issues on Wings containers and contacted Sunrise but got a poor response, it doesn't leave me with an impression of a manufacturer that is responsive to customer problems.   Which again leads me to believe that the problem still exists in the field.

The choice is down to the jumper what gear they want to jump.    As I said, I will pack them in the manner that the manufacturer approves but don't personally recommend them. 

The jumper in the video and the incident you linked to had the jumper on their back. The issue with reserve extraction in that position is not isolated to wings. As for Wing the new RPC design come out sometime in 2017.

Edited by meat.missile

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24 minutes ago, meat.missile said:

The jumper in the video and the incident you linked to had the jumper on their back. The issue with reserve extraction in that position is not isolated to wings. As for Wing the new RPC design come out sometime in 2017.

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Other rigs have jumpers deploying unstable and do not seem to attract the same result as both of these incidents with Wings containers.   I had seen another video in the past with a similar result but it was before 2017.

As for the RPC design - nothing had been put out to inform owners or riggers of the change in design.   The info was distributed out via some forums and social media discussions as a result of some incidents such as the two shown.    

I stand by my opinion that the problem has not been fixed.   It MAY have been resolved in a new container with a new design but that does not constitute fixed to all the existing owners. 

The fact that it has happened a number of times and the way that the problem was "fixed" by NOT being transparent and letting owners know of the potential problem and the updated design but rather redesigning and keeping quiet about the problem in the 1st place and simply including on new rigs makes me question the manufacturers customer support.   Even looking at Sunrise' web site for any information about a change in design reveals nothing.   How are owners meant to know there is even an update to the design?

As I also stated, when discussing the matter with them directly they would not say that the new design was better (or recommend it) but merely that both were acceptable.  That didn't exude confidence that this was the fix to the problem.

 

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14 hours ago, skytribe said:

Other rigs have jumpers deploying unstable and do not seem to attract the same result as both of these incidents with Wings containers.   I had seen another video in the past with a similar result but it was before 2017.

 

 

And other rigs have jumpers deploying unstable and do attract the same result.

Long story short, get a MARD to deal with low speed unstable reserve deployments.

 

Quote

I stand by my opinion that the problem has not been fixed.   It MAY have been resolved in a new container with a new design but that does not constitute fixed to all the existing owners. 

and some of us don't see a problem specific to wings in the first place.

The argument of whether a RPC should extract when someone's on their back sub terminal is a separate very nuanced discussion.

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On 2/26/2019 at 8:37 AM, meat.missile said:

And other rigs have jumpers deploying unstable and do attract the same result.

Long story short, get a MARD to deal with low speed unstable reserve deployments.

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I haven't seen the stories of this occurring on other rigs as you state.   And these stories have not been widely distributed as the wings ones.   I have spoken with the jumper who had personally had the experience and discussed it with him - and then had a discussion with a manufacturer who would not give me a straight answer.    

Getting a MARD certainly does deal with some problems but not all of them.  Mard's add an additional level of complexity and introduces new scenarios and do not always work.   If you were at PIA symposium there was an entire presentation on this and it was not specific to any MARD device but made you think a bit more and not simply drink the Kool-aid.

On 2/26/2019 at 8:37 AM, meat.missile said:

and some of us don't see a problem specific to wings in the first place.

The argument of whether a RPC should extract when someone's on their back sub terminal is a separate very nuanced discussion.

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That is your opinion.   Please let me know the other rigs and incidents that have had jumpers manually extracting the reserve free bag by hand and been towing a fully inflated pilot chute I think we would all like to be informed of this.

The discussion is nuanced and the previous discussions have also turned to the boxing of the reserve container being an issue and the two combined may be factors.   

The fact still remains that I would not personally recommend a Wings, that's my opinion. The OP asked and I provided and gave some reasons why.    I don't sell rigs so don't have anything to gain from influencing people elsewhere.   If you bring me a Wings to repack, I'll do it just as I do with any other rig someone brings me - each to their own personal choice.   

But there are 3 questions 

  • Have these incidents occurred?
  • Has the reserve pilot chute design been changed?
  • Where existing customers notified of the problem and correction by the manufacturer ?

I have detailed my issues with the container and the manufacturer for each of these.   Your responses are simply deflecting say they happened ages ago and one other rigs, the RPC was changed and they don't need to tell customers as both are OK and they should get a MARD to fix the problem.     That's fine and is your opinion and the way you feel - we can agree to disagree on this.

 

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15 minutes ago, skytribe said:

 

Your responses are simply deflecting say they happened ages ago and one other rigs, the RPC was changed and they don't need to tell customers as both are OK and they should get a MARD to fix the problem.     

 

That is a blatant misrepresentation of what I said throughout many posts.

Quote

Please let me know the other rigs and incidents that have had jumpers manually extracting the reserve free bag by hand and been towing a fully inflated pilot chute I think we would all like to be informed of this.

As for your extremely pointed question, I have heard of issues with sub-terminal unstable reserve deployments (the issue) happening on a fully covered RPC and it happen to me on a javelin (granted I was in a wingsuit). Neither of these incidents required extracting it by hand but it did require flipping to belly before the reserve was extracted.

 

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Any opinions on where to look would be greatly appreciated. Looking forward to your experience and snarky, witty humor. 

Getting back on topic. OP, either the wings or vector will be a great rig for you. They are both FF friendly and have a good MARD. I mostly wingsuit and have no issues with the Wings wingsuit mods if you eventually want to get into that.

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