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airdvr

Green New Deal

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42 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I have no doubt they disagree.  I don't know their situation.  I know people who love the US...others who aren't so enthused.  It all depends on your situation doesn't it? Care to refute anything in the actual video?

 

No, actually.  This is what we've been talking about this the entire time.  Those countries have a capitalistic economy with a strong social net.  They privatize where needed, gov't program where it doesn't work.  The fact is that if you want more (and we do) then everyone pays more taxes.  Now, granted they skewed a little of the info when they got to schools.  Good public schools perform better in areas where they are close to private schools because good private schools are located in more opulent areas.

NOBODY wants socialism in the US as the primary socioeconomic governing system.

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He is using a definition of 'socialism' that doesn't apply to Sweden.

It's pretty much the 'strict Marxist' definition. And Sweden isn't that.

So what?

Nobody on the right in the US uses that definition when calling what the Ds propose 'socialism'.
Not even the rather 'out there' proposals that sparked this thread are that.


They aren't even as far toward 'socialist' as Sweden actually is.

 

The right screams "No socialist government has ever worked!!"

When asked "What about the northern European countries?", they answer "THAT'S not REAL socialism".

 

Classic 'moving the goalposts'. 

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31 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

He is using a definition of 'socialism' that doesn't apply to Sweden.

It's pretty much the 'strict Marxist' definition. And Sweden isn't that.

So what?

Nobody on the right in the US uses that definition when calling what the Ds propose 'socialism'.
Not even the rather 'out there' proposals that sparked this thread are that.


They aren't even as far toward 'socialist' as Sweden actually is.

 

The right screams "No socialist government has ever worked!!"

When asked "What about the northern European countries?", they answer "THAT'S not REAL socialism".

 

Classic 'moving the goalposts'. 

"Socialism" is a dog whistle for the right and appears to have entrapped DJL. The right, the left argue classic college theory on why free market capitalism and socialism are best. You outline the common sense middle ground. Not to pick on DJL. But to suggest that the US would never choose it. Is a mistake using a broad brush of false efficacy.

I have used the example on how free market competition in health care doesn't work, in other discussions here. The US system is the best example. There could be a dialogue and debate in the US about privatizing national defense. With private companies running competing branches of the air forces, navies, etc. Yet even the right has never initiated such discussion.

Germany has a fantastic system of combining education and on the job training.Every country should adopt it, steal it. As a way to provide a educated, private enterprise, skilled workforce. I previously credited trump here, for this effort.

Trump rolls out job training plan, but experts say it's only the beginning

"We need to provide individuals a path to the next job or opportunity," Lotito said, adding that employers should avoid thinking of re-training as a business expense to be avoided. "We're going to need a totally different approach."

The administration's new initiative will likely have the focus needed to tackle the issue of worker displacement due to automation and advanced technologies, Lotito said, but he emphasized that a larger challenge will be for stakeholders to address those industries immediately at risk of displacement, such as the food and retail industries. These industries serve as points of entry into the workforce for many, he said, meaning it may soon be difficult for new generations to learn even basic skills."

trump initiated this expansion. THIS IS ALSO SOCIALISM.

Its the most efficient method to teach, train and manage skilled workers for future workplace requirements. In changing industries and companies. Like the Green New Deal. Yet trump, the right, FOX, et al. Spout the babble of "socialism". To the benefit of US special interest lobbyists and the status quo. Which drove many unsatisfied US voters to trump in the first place.

Edited by Phil1111

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4 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

"Socialism" is a dog whistle for the right and appears to have entrapped DJL. The right, the left argue classic college theory on why free market capitalism and socialism are best. You outline the common sense middle ground. Not to pick on DJL. But to suggest that the US would never choose it. Is a mistake using a broad brush of false efficacy.

I don't feel very trapped.  Nobody wants a purist Socialist system (Caveat, I'm sure there's some dreadlocked college kid with a Che Guevara shirt who does.)  Everyone wants a balance of a social net and a free market (Caveat, there are people who want an economocracy).  So no, I don't think I'm speaking in a broad brush when I say that Trump's statement of "America will never be a socialist country" is kind of a "No-shit, Sherlock".

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2 minutes ago, DJL said:

I don't feel very trapped.  Nobody wants a purist Socialist system (Caveat, I'm sure there's some dreadlocked college kid with a Che Guevara shirt who does.)  Everyone wants a balance of a social net and a free market (Caveat, there are people who want an economocracy).  So no, I don't think I'm speaking in a broad brush when I say that Trump's statement of "America will never be a socialist country" is kind of a "No-shit, Sherlock".

Agree. But the concepts are not as much as "socialism', being entirely about social safety nets. But how the state limits excesses of monopolies, polluters, corporate abuse, etc. While providing overall directions for the country to protect the weak and vulnerable citizens. While simultaneously organizing the most busines, innovative, tax-competitive, environment possible. To fund the common objectives of the democracy. Not the special interest anchors of the state.

Without derailing the Green New Deal too much. This is not the way to do it.

U.S. Republican Senator Rubio pushes plan to tax stock buybacks    This just shows how nutty ideas of state interference/taxation, socialism. Can come from the right as well as the left. Needless to say, monies to buy back stocks by companies. Have been taxed once already. The debate of dividend taxation v. buybacks a separate taxation issue.

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7 minutes ago, DJL said:

...So no, I don't think I'm speaking in a broad brush when I say that Trump's statement of "America will never be a socialist country" is kind of a "No-shit, Sherlock".

But we are a 'socialist' country in many ways.

Billvon keeps pointing this out when folks scream "This would make us SOCIALIST!!!!!"

Roads, Air Traffic control, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, public schools, even (gasp!) the INTERNET.

 

I tend towards 'Libertarian' in a lot of ways.
But even those tendencies are tempered by the simple fact that I need certain services. 
I paid my property taxes last month. Not a trivial sum. But I always go into the office with a smile. 
My garbage gets picked up. My street gets plowed when it snows (10" on Tuesday. Grrr...) The potholes get filled. 
Most importantly, when I dial 911, the cops or firemen arrive within a couple minutes (I know this for a fact).

To expect that stuff for free is stupid. To expect services, but not be willing to pay taxes for them...

That would make me a Trump supporter.o.O

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5 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Agree. But the concepts are not as much as "socialism', being entirely about social safety nets. But how the state limits excesses of monopolies, polluters, corporate abuse, etc. While providing overall directions for the country to protect the weak and vulnerable citizens. While simultaneously organizing the most busines, innovative, tax-competitive, environment possible. To fund the common objectives of the democracy. Not the special interest anchors of the state.

Without derailing the Green New Deal too much. This is not the way to do it.

U.S. Republican Senator Rubio pushes plan to tax stock buybacks    This just shows how nutty ideas of state interference/taxation, socialism. Can come from the right as well as the left. Needless to say, monies to buy back stocks by companies. Have been taxed once already. The debate of dividend taxation v. buybacks a separate taxation issue.

Ah, the misinterpretation that the left is always for and the right is always against and everyone is full of shit when it comes down to systems they actually want.  I'm not a fan of the Green New Deal as it piggybacks a bunch of things that only esoterically have to do with the environment.

 

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2 hours ago, airdvr said:

Care to refute anything in the actual video?

Would you care to refute anything in the video, or do you agree with it that the economy can be successful with higher taxes and fully socialized medicine? Do you agree that the government can pay for childcare and force employers to give 18 months paid parental leave and everything will be just fine?

 

Do you think those things are compatible with a thriving capitalist economy, or do you want to refute the video?

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Amazon pull HQ2 out of Queens.  25k jobs gone.  Occassional-Cortex rejoices.

 Rep. Rashida Tlaib promotes Eminent Domain to seize GM manufacturing facilities (which is private property) for Green New Deal.

Interesting times indeed.

(How do I change fonts on this dang thing)

 

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6 minutes ago, Iago said:

Amazon pull HQ2 out of Queens.  25k jobs gone.  Occassional-Cortex rejoices.

 Rep. Rashida Tlaib promotes Eminent Domain to seize GM manufacturing facilities (which is private property) for Green New Deal.

Interesting times indeed.

(How do I change fonts on this dang thing)

 

Yeah, a politician objecting to giving $1,000,000,000 to one of the wealthiest corporations around is indeed shocking. I can see why you would want to make fun of that.

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6 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Yeah, a politician objecting to giving $1,000,000,000 to one of the wealthiest corporations around is indeed shocking. I can see why you would want to make fun of that.

You gotta pay to play.  25k x $150k x 6% is $225mil/year.  Call it a capital investment with a ROI.

25% per annum over the longer term is pretty good.  Fudge it up it down any way you like and it's still attractive.

 

 

Edited by Iago

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23 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

Amazon was never putting that HQ in Queens. This was all games to get data and incentives to put it where they REALLY want it.

When they announced that location I said 'one of the most expensive places to live in the country that is doing fine.  Put it in WVA or Kentucky or someplace else that could use the jobs' (or something like that.). So, we shall see what the actually do.

 

Nashville is a good choice, though, and I imagine Cookeville is going to get a nice boost.

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30 minutes ago, Iago said:

You gotta pay to play.  25k x $150k x 6% is $225mil/year.  Call it a capital investment with a ROI.

25% per annum over the longer term is pretty good.  Fudge it up it down any way you like and it's still attractive.

 

 

Pay to play for what? Isn't unemployment at historic lows?

Wouldn't this drive up housing costs? Transportation costs?

Why do you think that all 25,000 would make $150,000? According to glassdoor VPs at Amazon make between $160,000 to $200,000. So my guess is the average salary will be much closer to $80,000.

lastly, your calculation would imply 25,000 net new employment. That assumption is just......bizarre.

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10 hours ago, jakee said:

Would you care to refute anything in the video, or do you agree with it that the economy can be successful with higher taxes and fully socialized medicine? Do you agree that the government can pay for childcare and force employers to give 18 months paid parental leave and everything will be just fine?

 

Do you think those things are compatible with a thriving capitalist economy, or do you want to refute the video?

Higher taxes?...absolutely. But whom are you taxing?  The knee jerk reaction is to tax the hell out of the rich.  But make it too hard on them and they'll just go someplace else (Atlas Shrugged) 

 Fully socialized medicine?  Better do some tort reform before you try that one.  As long as lawyers are free to file trivial class action suits we'll never be able to fully realize the potential of our system.

AFA forcing employers to pay for 18 months of childcare...I don't think that's something an employer should be doing.  We already have the FMLA (Friday Monday leave act).  Obamacare made having full time employees a liability, so we have a billion part timers with no insurance benefits.  I'd like to see medicare for all but have you ever been in a fully medicare funded facility?  It ain't pretty.

No system is perfect.  As long as we continue to live under the rule of the elites we'll continue to suffer.

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17 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Higher taxes?...absolutely. But whom are you taxing?  The knee jerk reaction is to tax the hell out of the rich.  But make it too hard on them and they'll just go someplace else

Top bracket marginal tax rates in Scandinavian countries aren't very different from the US.

Sales taxes are significantly higher

Gross incomes are higher

Minimum income is higher

 

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37 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Pay to play for what? Isn't unemployment at historic lows?

Wouldn't this drive up housing costs? Transportation costs?

Why do you think that all 25,000 would make $150,000? According to glassdoor VPs at Amazon make between $160,000 to $200,000. So my guess is the average salary will be much closer to $80,000.

lastly, your calculation would imply 25,000 net new employment. That assumption is just......bizarre.

(Shrug) those were the estimates from Amazon’s agreement with the legislature.  Estimate net jobs over ten years and average estimated salary.  Like I said- fudge them anyway you like, cut one in half or both by a quarter, and the ROI is still pretty attractive.  

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Cuomo was also disappointed, but he took out his anger on the legislators who worked to torpedo the deal.

“[A] small group [of] politicians put their own narrow political interests above their community — which poll after poll showed overwhelmingly supported bringing Amazon to Long Island City — the state's economic future and the best interests of the people of this state. The New York state Senate has done tremendous damage. They should be held accountable for this lost economic opportunity.”

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10 minutes ago, Iago said:

(Shrug) those were the estimates from Amazon’s agreement with the legislature.  Estimate net jobs over ten years and average estimated salary.  Like I said- fudge them anyway you like, cut one in half or both by a quarter, and the ROI is still pretty attractive.  

If you think those variables alone would calculate ROI then yes, I guess it would be.

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18 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Top bracket marginal tax rates in Scandinavian countries aren't very different from the US.

Sales taxes are significantly higher

Gross incomes are higher

Minimum income is higher

 

Countries with the Best Health Care Systems in the World

US ranks last and spends the most.

Taxation is going to force high income earners to move out of the US? Really? airdvr likes to throw out such outlandish rationale for capitalism. That he should apply to FOX as a screenwriter for Hannity.

Parroting responses in the face of disputing facts belies a inquisitive mind.

Edited by Phil1111

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Dateline NYC 2020:  in a stunning turn of events, Alexandria Occassional-Cortex, the youngest person ever elected to Congress, was solidly defeated in the primary by her 2018 opponent and long-term former Representative Crowley.

 

Apparently, the roughly the 200k registered Democrats in the 14th district that forgot there was an election in 2018 decided to show up.  John Smith, a long term resident of the Bronx, voted for Ms. Cotez in the 2018 general election.  He had this to say about the turn of events:

”Yeah, we sure got burned on that one.  I was so used to just showing up in November and punching whoever had the big D by their name I usually didn’t even think about it.   This time I’m actually reading the names.”

 

Crowley, who is expected to regain his seat in Washington, ran one of the simplest campaigns in History and didn’t even show up to a public debate.  Instead, his place at the podium was occupied by a big easel with a picture of the Incumbent in the Capitol Building hallway and the caption “Amazon HQ2- any questions?”  The same image was run on local TV in 15 second spots followed by a Crowley 2020 banner.

Edited by Iago

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On 2/10/2019 at 1:35 PM, BIGUN said:

That's not true, either. Her proposals are being attacked, but the left tells everyone that the right is attacking her.

To further illustrate how the right wing is terrified of her (a young non-white woman) rather than her proposals, consider the above post by Iago:

"Alexandria Occassional-Cortex . . .the podium was occupied by a big easel with a picture of the Incumbent . ."

To paraphrase Iago, she has an intermittent brain and anyone who sees her will realize how much of a woman and a minority she is - and therefore not vote for her.

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She is celebrating Amazon not moving into/next door to her district (depending on where the actual lines are being drawn.). The 14th district has a median/average per capital income a hair under $50k.  Amazon comes into the area and boosts that even 15-20% to 60ish and that would be huge.  Instead she’s mugging the camera about how this NOT happening is a good thing.

Being a woman and a minority has nothing to do with it.

Edited by Iago
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3 minutes ago, Iago said:

Being a woman and a minority has nothing to do with it.

And yet you posted a thing about how no one would vote for her once they saw her picture.

Bigun claimed that her policies were being attacked, not her.  Thank you for providing another piece of evidence to disprove that.

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3 minutes ago, billvon said:

And yet you posted a thing about how no one would vote for her once they saw her picture.

Bigun claimed that her policies were being attacked, not her.  Thank you for providing another piece of evidence to disprove that.

Oh, I’m sorry, you apparently missed the part with the caption that says “Amazon HQ2- any questions?” As in “Any questions why you should NOT vote for this person to represent your interests?”

 

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