Mandatory DNA test for male healthcare workers

[TriGirl 268]

gowlerk

Quote

So at the end of the story, he may not be the offspring of a rapist.

Excuse me, how could that not be rape? And what family would not want to keep the child?

It would not be rape if her family inseminated her.

Children conceived from rape often continue to remind the victims and other family members of the crime, and therefore are placed for adoption so they can have a loving home. If this family really thought their daughter was raped, would they be okay just walking away with the child? Good on them if they are, but as I said, I'm skeptical.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[ryoder 1,381]

Are you implying the act involved a syringe rather than intercourse?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[gowlerk 1,903]

Words fail me. I'll just say that I strongly disagree.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DanG 1]

I agree with your strong disagreement. No one can give consent except the woman, and she clearly did not.

- Dan G

[DJL 232]

gowlerk

Words fail me. I'll just say that I strongly disagree.

I was thinking the same as Tri mostly because this is already so far into the world of unbelievable that the rules that govern what you expect are out the window.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Phil1111 908]

A hacked DZ account.

[Remster 24]

DJL

***Words fail me. I'll just say that I strongly disagree.

I was thinking the same as Tri mostly because this is already so far into the world of unbelievable that the rules that govern what you expect are out the window.

I think you would, unfortunately, look at the definition of "rape" and see if it applies in this f'ed up situation.

Add to that the family may have POA and medical POA, so would insemination fall under a med procedure?

Brave new world....

Remster

[DJL 232]

Phil1111

A hacked DZ account.

Huh?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 232]

Remster

******Words fail me. I'll just say that I strongly disagree.

I was thinking the same as Tri mostly because this is already so far into the world of unbelievable that the rules that govern what you expect are out the window.

I think you would, unfortunately, look at the definition of "rape" and see if it applies in this f'ed up situation.

Add to that the family may have POA and medical POA, so would insemination fall under a med procedure?

Brave new world....

Oh, I don't even mean that them inseminating her has anything to do with how we define rape, just that there's the way-the-fuck-out-there possibility that it wasn't someone physically climbing on top of her for sexual gratification.

Wow, even typing these words is abhorrent. I hope this child has a happy life and that the person who did this to her is apprehended.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Phil1111 908]

DJL

***A hacked DZ account.

Huh?

Its a post which I would normally not associate with Trigirl's usual intelligent thinking.

Rape cannot be consented to except by direct participants.Which by definition would not be an assault.

If she was inseminated artificially it would be assault but not rape. But thats just stretching the possibilities.

Its staff, other patients, or visitors.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

DJL

***A hacked DZ account.

Huh?

To add onto Phil's comment, I've read TriGirl's posts for a while.

For her to say it can't be rape because it was a family member who did it goes against just about everything she seems to stand for.

There are a few people who I would expect this sort of comment from. She is NOT one of them

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DJL 232]

wolfriverjoe

******A hacked DZ account.

Huh?

To add onto Phil's comment, I've read TriGirl's posts for a while.

For her to say it can't be rape because it was a family member who did it goes against just about everything she seems to stand for.

There are a few people who I would expect this sort of comment from. She is NOT one of them

I don't think she's making a stone tablet statement about what is or isn't rape just responding within the context of our conversation that it may not have been someone who sexually assaulted her for their own gratification. The idea of a family member inseminating her is also rape and is also abhorrent.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,384]

Quote

Rape cannot be consented to except by direct participants.Which by definition would not be an assault.

I assume you meant to say "sex" there. (If there's consent it's not rape.)

[TriGirl 268]

DJL

Add to that the family may have POA and medical POA, so would insemination fall under a med procedure?

Brave new world....

Oh, I don't even mean that them inseminating her has anything to do with how we define rape, just that there's the way-the-fuck-out-there possibility that it wasn't someone physically climbing on top of her for sexual gratification.

Wow, even typing these words is abhorrent. I hope this child has a happy life and that the person who did this to her is apprehended.

Yeah, what DJL said. This is what I meant.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[billvon 2,384]

>Add to that the family may have POA and medical POA, so would insemination fall under a
>med procedure?

If they had medical power of attorney, AND the patient had expressed a previous desire to have a child, AND they acted on this by doing an artificial insemination via a fertility clinic, AND it was because they hoped she would deliver a child to term - how on earth would the staff not know anything about it? That just makes no sense.

[TriGirl 268]

billvon

>Add to that the family may have POA and medical POA, so would insemination fall under a
>med procedure?

If they had medical power of attorney, AND the patient had expressed a previous desire to have a child, AND they acted on this by doing an artificial insemination via a fertility clinic, AND it was because they hoped she would deliver a child to term - how on earth would the staff not know anything about it? That just makes no sense.

Agreed. IF this is actually what happened (that the family chose to inseminate -- not necessarily the rest of the conditions you listed), then does it fall in the category of rape, or is it some other violation?

My point was that I was questioning the family's version of events (as well as the facility's). I don't see how no one knew she was pregnant until she went into labor. If that can be explained, then perhaps ... but if no complaints were filed and no investigation until afterward, and the family seems ready to just move on and raise a healthy child they supposedly weren't expecting, then I question either the way in which the child was created or the frame of mind of the family.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[billvon 2,384]

>IF this is actually what happened (that the family chose to inseminate -- not necessarily the
>rest of the conditions you listed), then does it fall in the category of rape, or is it some other
>violation?

Rape. The only case where it's not rape is if they had medical POA and it was a medical procedure (i.e. via a fertility clinic.) They would also need to show that it was something she wanted - but they could claim that after the fact and likely make it stick, since the patient can't object.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Tri,

Quote

I don't see how no one knew she was pregnant until she went into labor.

Back in 1960, I was working in the hospital at Edwards AFB. A military wife was checking one of her kids out of a stay in the hospital; she had about 8 -> 12 other kids at the time. I said to a co-worker, 'That woman looks pregnant.' He answered, 'Nah, she's just fat.'

About 2-3 nites later she was admitted & delivered a new baby. Not one record of her being pregnant and neither she nor her husband knew she was pregnant.

It can happen.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 2,384]

>About 2-3 nites later she was admitted & delivered a new baby. Not one record of
>her being pregnant and neither she nor her husband knew she was pregnant.
>It can happen.

That would be a lot less likely if her husband had had to clean her up (or not) during her periods.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

TriGirl

***>Add to that the family may have POA and medical POA, so would insemination fall under a
>med procedure?

If they had medical power of attorney, AND the patient had expressed a previous desire to have a child, AND they acted on this by doing an artificial insemination via a fertility clinic, AND it was because they hoped she would deliver a child to term - how on earth would the staff not know anything about it? That just makes no sense.

Agreed. IF this is actually what happened (that the family chose to inseminate -- not necessarily the rest of the conditions you listed), then does it fall in the category of rape, or is it some other violation?

My point was that I was questioning the family's version of events (as well as the facility's). I don't see how no one knew she was pregnant until she went into labor. If that can be explained, then perhaps ... but if no complaints were filed and no investigation until afterward, and the family seems ready to just move on and raise a healthy child they supposedly weren't expecting, then I question either the way in which the child was created or the frame of mind of the family.

Wow. It really was you.

In any case, sexual contact of any kind is 'rape' (more properly termed 'sexual assault').

I can't conceive (pun not intended) of any way a woman could become pregnant without some sort of sexual contact. Even artificial insemination. The intent may be clinical, not sexual gratification, but the contact still meets the definition.

Also, by definition, an unconscious person cannot consent. Ask Brock Turner about that one.

If the family decided that they wanted the woman to have a child (and I see it as a real but remote possibility), then doing it without involving the facility and some sort of medical personnel would be both reckless and illegal. I'm not sure how there's any way to get around the 'consent' issue short of her leaving clear and specific wishes to have a child.

I can see a few different ways nobody realized she was pregnant. jclalor works (or used to) in long term care, and he didn't seem to see it as an impossibility.

The family's mindset is hard to pinpoint. And it is likely a lot more complicated than can be summed up in a short article.
It is their relative. They may be looking beyond who the father is and focusing on who the mother is.
They may see a big payoff from a lawsuit.

It's a very complex situation. And I doubt we know more than just a small part of it.

And going back to the original subject (the search warrant), I've been thinking about it.

I can't see any way this would stand up to a competent court challenge. If any of the subjects of it have a decent lawyer, if the ACLU is willing to take it up, I think there would be an injunction against the searches.

This is the rough equivalent of the cops knowing there's a drug dealer somewhere on a block. But not knowing which house. Would a judge issue a search warrant for an entire block of houses, knowing that only one is a drug house? I doubt it.

In this case, the judge is requiring a fairly intrusive search of a group of people, knowing that only one (maybe) is guilty of a crime. The judge is forcing people he knows (or should know) are innocent to be subject to this search.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[SkyDekker 1,121]

billvon

>About 2-3 nites later she was admitted & delivered a new baby. Not one record of
>her being pregnant and neither she nor her husband knew she was pregnant.
>It can happen.

That would be a lot less likely if her husband had had to clean her up (or not) during her periods.

I think what you are getting at is that whomever was caring for the comatosed woman should have noticed her not having a period while changing her sanitary napkins.

Vaginal bleeding during pregnancy is not unusual. Not sure how much checking of the discharge in a sanitary napkin of a comatosed woman you are advocating for here? Specially keeping in mind that the possibility of pregnancy would likely have never been a consideration.

[wmw999 2,117]

Serious stress can cause the period to cease, or not to be anything remotely resembling regular. Serious athletes often don't have periods. So that's not necessarily a good indicator.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkyDekker 1,121]

wmw999

Serious stress can cause the period to cease, or not to be anything remotely resembling regular. Serious athletes often don't have periods. So that's not necessarily a good indicator.

Wendy P.

Understood and agreed.

However, comatosed women generally get their periods. Pregnant women cannot get their period, but can experience vaginal bleeding/spotting.

I believe Bill's implication to be that a caregiver should have noticed the lack of period and therefor the indication of a possible pregnancy. My comment was aimed at that.

[ryoder 1,381]

wmw999

Serious stress can cause the period to cease, or not to be anything remotely resembling regular. Serious athletes often don't have periods. So that's not necessarily a good indicator.

Wendy P.

It can depend on body fat percentage. I had an ex-GF who who became a hardcore distance runner, lost a lot of weight, and experienced it:
https://www.livestrong.com/article/385269-at-what-body-fat-percent-do-you-start-losing-your-period/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[gowlerk 1,903]

Quote

The only case where it's not rape is if they had medical POA and it was a medical procedure (i.e. via a fertility clinic.) They would also need to show that it was something she wanted - but they could claim that after the fact and likely make it stick, since the patient can't object.

That would not be rape. It also would be unethical, even if it could be shown that she wanted it. No clinic would participate in such an act.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.